Antique or Prohib?

D

david doyle

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I think I know the answer to this but I am posting this to try and help anyone from getting themselves in serious trouble.

Is a cheap belgium revolver of pre 1898 manufacure with no real defensiable collector value, that you know chambers 38S&W an Antique or a prohibited weapon?

Because I know there will be two opinions could someone also give an idea of the cost/punishment invloved in a prohib charge?

Also how happy would you be as an antique collector if all of a sudden they needed to be verified?

Cheers all. Antiques forever!
David
 
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What is the caliber stamp on the revolver? This is important. Just because a given cartridge will enter a firearm does not mean that the firearm was manufactured specifically for that cartridge.
If the firearm was manufactured or rechambered specifically for .38 S&W, it is not an antique. And, if its barrel than 105mm, then it would be prohib.
It is also necessary to be able to establish that the firearm was made prior to 1898, and this is sometimes not easy.
A verifier MIGHT be able to establish if the revolver qualifies as antique or not.
 
AFAIK, as long as the gun is pre-98 and the original chambering/stampings are for a cartridge not on the "list" then your good to go.
Barrel length doesn't apply for antiques because they are "antiques" and NOT "firearms".
An original .41 rimfire derringer is NOT a prohib, just an antique- for example.
Just my 2 cents worth.
 
OK since I asked I have been assured that your guys interpretation of the regs is correct and apprently the CFC does to. That is good. My concern was that in the EE there was a RIC advertised as being able to chamber a 38S&W and I was thinking someone caught with a .380 webley and a pocket full of .38 sandw might find themselves in a very tight spot.

I guess also I don't want to see the antique scene flooded with a bunch of cheap small bore saturday night specials that can chamber commonly available ammo. I am selfish and don't want my fun ruined if it gets out of hand. There is a near endless supply of cheap 32 and 38 antiques due south.


Basically I just think some EE seller should exercise some tact when it comes to flaunting the intent of the law especially when it is profit motivated not shooting sport/collecting motivated.

Thanks for the replies guys as always
David
 
Here is a more modern parallel: the Spanish Astra M400 was manufactured and intended to fire the 9mm Largo Spanish service cartridge. It has been observed that it will accept and function with a variety of different 9mm cartridges. This may or may not be a good idea, and this was certainly not the intention of the manufacturer.
The regulations defining antique firearms are what they are. They are complicated and frequently silly. A Winchester 1885 single shot rifle in .45-70is an antique, one in .32-40 is modern, even if both were made prior to 1898.
 
tiriaq said:
Here is a more modern parallel: the Spanish Astra M400 was manufactured and intended to fire the 9mm Largo Spanish service cartridge. It has been observed that it will accept and function with a variety of different 9mm cartridges. This may or may not be a good idea, and this was certainly not the intention of the manufacturer.
The regulations defining antique firearms are what they are. They are complicated and frequently silly. A Winchester 1885 single shot rifle in .45-70is an antique, one in .32-40 is modern, even if both were made prior to 1898.
Click to expand...

That being said if the .32-40 were to be bored ot or rebarelled to .45-70, then it becomes an antique as the receiver is that dated part, not the tube spun onto it.

For that matter, an 1897 made handgun frame is ALWAYS an antique if it is just a frame. If it has a barrel and/or cylinder on it, it might NOT be an antique depending upon the caliber.

Very wierd regs...
 
I have an unknown centerfire Belgian revolver with pre 1897 proofing and no caliber stamping. The cylinder is too short for anything that I know of other than 38 short Colt. Groove diameter is .357, thus it is NOT antique.
The 380 revolver cartridge requires a groove diameter of .380 and thus a revolver built for this cartridge would be antique with the same proof stamp as mine.
In other words no 38 caliber (.357) handgun is antique unless it's rimfire or pinfire.
Interestingly, if this 'unknown' Belgian was simply drilled out to .380 bore and cylinder it could immediately be removed from the registry.
 
Well I agree our firearms regs can be a bit on the silly side! But at the same time I think some thought went into them and that in large part the antique regs were designed to keep the antique game form getting to broad and cheap.

Myself I 'll stick to .455/.476 and all the other wonderful big bore cannons of days gone by. (and dream of a mint .577 boxer that is resting in a trunk somewhere just waiting to find it's way to me:D )
 
I think that it is charitable to describe the process that went into many, if not most firearm regs. as "thought ". The antique regulations in some ways are wide open; in other ways they are ridiculously restrictive, without any rational justification.
 
Oh god am I defending the regs, :confused:,

The thought part that I see is that the regs seem to keep the majority of crappy, cheap, american made saturday night specials from the 1880s and 1890s out of the loop. While allowing for the inclusion of the majority of quality arms. I spend alot of time shopping for antiques and the ones I can't buy are almost always the ones that are cheap and ugly! At the other end of the scale US made arms that are on the list of no go calibres are so expensive that they are the realm of only the most serious/monied collector so it is no great lose to a working stiff like me.

I am not going to complain about the antique regs that is for sure they give us lots of options to enjoy collecting and shooting in a refreshingly paperless environment.

Now I just gotta find me a 1897 manufacture 9mm parabellum chambered 1896 mauser broomhandle with an artillery snail magazine:cool:
 
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Well, the regs allow in all the cheap Suicide Special .25 & .32 rimfire revolvers; only the .22s are going to the chopper - because they are classed as prohibs. For quality arms, consider the Colt revolvers. Here the caliber and barrel regulations are really stupid. Some SAAs and 1878s are antique, some restricted, some prohibs. With the '77s, its the same idiocy. The .38s are restricted or prohibited, all the .41s are antique regardless of barrel length. The little Open Top .22s are prohib. There is no rhyme nor reason to this. I have a 1878 Double Action made in 1883. Its frame is diestruck "JP Lower", who was a gunsmith in Denver, Colorado in the 1880s. So, its a Colt .45, made in the 1880s, retailed by a known dealer in a Western mining town. Because its barrel is 4", it is a prohib and will eventually be destroyed. I see what you are getting at, but I just don't agree. The antique regulations are arbitrary, irrational, and just plain stupid.
 
Hey why cant you just put a longer barrel on your 45 colt tiriaq ??

I realise it wont be Antique but at least it wont be Prohib arnt colt barrels threaded to the actions? get a 45 caliber 6 in barrel and thread it in your action and you can keep it Right? :D

course i guess them barrels arnt just rolling around in peoples junk drawers. But even if you had to get one made from something else at least you wont have to Melt it down :(
 
Yes, it could be rebarrelled. The frame is not cut for an ejector, of course. I have a 5 1/2" New Service .455 barrel that could be adapted. Threads seem same diameter, NS shank is longer. Or, it could be fitted with a new cylinder in a non-list caliber, and become an antique. Actually .455 wouldn't be a bad choice. Should see if I can find a .44-40 cylinder, and ream it. As far as that goes, there are a number of non list .45 options. Fit a replacement cylinder in .45 Scofield, .455, .45 Auto, .45 Auto Rim, .450, and the original 4" barrel is no longer a problem. Once again this just underlines the asininity of the regulations.
 
Ya i hear you there really stupid but 45 scofeild sounds good and 455 and 45 scofeild both can use the 454 dia bullet.

I have a Webly No 4 pryse type and a 45 long colt fits the chamber but the action wont close so i trim a couple tho off the front side of the 45 colt rim and then they fit. Cause the guns 476 (Says right on the side) i can shoot the modifyied 45 long colts outa it and thats totaly legal :D
But modifying the cylinder to fit a case on the NO list is not Legal.

The No 4s pryse and a few other Antique Webley type british guns have longer Cylinders than the well known MKI and MKII in 455.

But its what the guns were orignaly Chambered for that maters not what happens to fit the gun,

but altering cases or if something out there happens to fit well No worries.:D

I just found this out recently from CFC as with this Antique thing i seem to learn something new every day or so :confused:
 
The difference between the 32, 38, 41 rimfires and the .22 lr and short is the availability of ammo. hence it makes some sense. .22 velodog and 6mm rimfore are both ok which seems wierd but again it is tough and expensive to come by.

Now if you want a stupid rule the long gun regisrty now that is f'in retarded!


I agree with dingus, if that colt does'nt cut it as an antique make it so. you have lots of options available. I don't know the thickness of the colt rim but if it is not too thick just shaving the cyliner face so the firing pin wont reach the primer of a 45 colt and shooting autorim or acp in clips would get it deregistered. just don't let some torch jockey at her.
 
I personally don't care what calibre it was made in...I think that the Antique regs should be changed so that anything manufactured before 1898 is an Antique...or better yet, 100 yrs old from present date...

The point should be made that regardless of whether a gun is chambered in 45 Long Colt or not, one would have to be pretty foolish to load a newly made 45LC cartridge in an antique...the explosion would be enough to remind the user not to do it again(if he lives).

These guns were designed on lower pressures and black powder loads, so there is no reason why they should be classified as restricted or prohib simply by calibre. This is more of a ridiculous technicality that does nothing to curb illegal use of a firearm on the streets...if I am not mistaken the calibre of choice on the streets is still a cut between 45acp and 9mm luger...not 45LC and 44-40
 
peckerwood said:
I personally don't care what calibre it was made in...I think that the Antique regs should be changed so that anything manufactured before 1898 is an Antique...or better yet, 100 yrs old from present date...

The point should be made that regardless of whether a gun is chambered in 45 Long Colt or not, one would have to be pretty foolish to load a newly made 45LC cartridge in an antique...the explosion would be enough to remind the user not to do it again(if he lives).

These guns were designed on lower pressures and black powder loads, so there is no reason why they should be classified as restricted or prohib simply by calibre. This is more of a ridiculous technicality that does nothing to curb illegal use of a firearm on the streets...if I am not mistaken the calibre of choice on the streets is still a cut between 45acp and 9mm luger...not 45LC and 44-40
Click to expand...

thatd be so awesome. Imagine having a colt pocket pistol made in the early 1900.
but itll probably be prohib b/c of 25acp/32acp cal...
 
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