Antique pistol to carry or not to carry?

[bushpilotmexico]

I am sure that this has been discussed before but let me ask the question again. Let's assume hypothetically that an individual owns an antique pistol chambered for .38 rimfire and has the appropriate RCMP letter confirming its antique status and saying basically that under current regulations it is not considered to be a firearm.

Now lets assume this individual finds a way to load .38 rimfire cases and chambers lets say 6 or 5 rounds depending on the cylinder capacity. Now he holsters the "non firearm" and decides to open carry it either in the bush or hypothetically even on the street ( although the latter would be foolish).

Now let's assume you are stopped by the RCMP or a CO and questioned. It's difficult for me to believe that if I present the "non firearm" with a loaded cylinder to the officer that he or she is going to say "Have a nice day" and let me go on my way. When does an antique "non firearm" suddenly become a "loaded firearm"?

 

[duncansuds]

If it didn’t fall under a fire arm, concealed weapon comes to mind.

The bush…well, that’s the point of the letter, but it will be to the discretion of the investigating body as to how much trouble you will receive for being a law-abiding citizen.

I used to carry my bulldog (unloaded) around with me in the truck, was never concerned for the legality.

 

[cooey43]

I am sure that this has been discussed before but let me ask the question again. Let's assume hypothetically that an individual owns an antique pistol chambered for .38 rimfire and has the appropriate RCMP letter confirming its antique status and saying basically that under current regulations it is not considered to be a firearm.

Now lets assume this individual finds a way to load .38 rimfire cases and chambers lets say 6 or 5 rounds depending on the cylinder capacity. Now he holsters the "non firearm" and decides to open carry it either in the bush or hypothetically even on the street ( although the latter would be foolish).

Now let's assume you are stopped by the RCMP or a CO and questioned. It's difficult for me to believe that if I present the "non firearm" with a loaded cylinder to the officer that he or she is going to say "Have a nice day" and let me go on my way. When does an antique "non firearm" suddenly become a "loaded firearm"?

I have in writting ( from CFO & CO in Ontario) , two things you can do with an Antique Handgun.

1 - Target shoot wherever you can normally shoot a firearm & need NOT be an Approved Range.
2 - Hunt small game in Ontario. So bush or field carry would be OK in Ontario.

 

[KotKotofeich]

or hypothetically even on the street ( although the latter would be foolish).

This bit would also not be legal unless firearms discharge is somehow allowed on that street and at that distance from buildings. Otherwise you cannot _use_ the firearm legally there and therefore should not be loading it.

Otherwise there is an excellent (if dated) NFA article that goes into antiques (search for NFA antiques) - generally an antique is only exempt from registration, licensing and some of the storage and transportation requirements. If you commit another crime it is still a weapon.

I'm waiting to see if the new licensing provisions of C-21 for _parts_ will now force licensing requirements on antiques.

Your most common interaction would be with a CO in the woods, you generally would not be presenting it to them or even touching it unless they ask and you will be _following their instructions_ to a T.

Based on how you set up your example scenario you still have a lot to explore about antiques. Enjoy your upcoming discoveries

 

[trebor2880]

At the very least, it won't be a joyful and stress free experience for some, including me.

 

[Scotty454]

Why do people think they aren't considered firearms? They definitely are. They're antique firearms, except from some of the regulations that NR/R/P firearms have (Like KKf said), but they're still regulated firearms.

From the firearms act:

Antique Firearms
14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.

(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if

(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and

(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.

(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.

Handling of Firearms
15 An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

 

[Derv]

Why do people think they aren't considered firearms? They definitely are. They're antique firearms, except from some of the regulations that NR/R/P firearms have (Like KKf said), but they're still regulated firearms.

From the firearms act:

It’s the criminal code that defines them as non-firearms. Sec 84(1)(3)(a). For certain purposes though, they need to be treated as firearms.

 

[Spokerider]

An antique is a non-firearm. However, IF used in a crime, the very same confirmed-firearm context charges, can be levied against the person whom committed said crime.

Lets cut to the chase.......
Whom here can confirm that they, or someone that they personally know, has been charged and convicted with any crime, involving or centred around an "antique" designated firearm?

Lets hear it.

 

[apu]

An antique is a non-firearm. However, IF used in a crime, the very same confirmed-firearm context charges, can be levied against the person whom committed said crime.

Lets cut to the chase.......
Whom here can confirm that they, or someone that they personally know, has been charged and convicted with any crime, involving or centred around an "antique" designated firearm?

Lets hear it.

Quick google implies just walking around with an antique gun can get you arrested, unclear if any charges or convictions( this was a recent event court is probably several months away). Considering the OPP news released this info, good chance he got charged with something. Nonetheless going to police station even if briefly to be processed, a CPIC encounter record that will never go away, likely gun seizure and subsequent lawyer involvement implies that the original idea was not well thought out. Man arrested walking around Hawkesbury, Ont. with a suspected antique firearm, OPP says

 

[Scotty454]

An antique is a non-firearm. However, IF used in a crime, the very same confirmed-firearm context charges, can be levied against the person whom committed said crime.

Lets cut to the chase.......
Whom here can confirm that they, or someone that they personally know, has been charged and convicted with any crime, involving or centred around an "antique" designated firearm?

Lets hear it.

Lol I don't know anyone that knows anyone that has been charged with murder. That must make murder legal, right?

Say it with me- "Correlation does not equal causation"! Very good

 

[Mr.Rigpig]

An antique is a non-firearm. However, IF used in a crime, the very same confirmed-firearm context charges, can be levied against the person whom committed said crime.

Kinda like if you rob a bank with a plastic toy gun, you're still getting all the same gun charges as you would have if it was a real gun.

 

[Spokerider]

Lol I don't know anyone that knows anyone that has been charged with murder. That must make murder legal, right?

Say it with me- "Correlation does not equal causation"! Very good

Ah yes.......
Another pompous cgn-genius whose purpose here, is nothing more than to arrogantly misconstrue the context of another members statement.
How very ####ing admirable, of you.

 

[LawrenceN]

I have an antique S&W .44 Russian that I carry when I'm bow hunting or when I have my hands occupied with tools while I'm in the woods. It is legal to carry an antique pistol anywhere it is legal to carry and/or discharge any non-restricted firearm. In the case of a pistol it must be openly displayed and not concealed under a jacket or whatnot. That can land you a charge of "carrying a concealed weapon". There is a lot of practical information out there from those of us who do carry and the do's and don't's.

 

[CLW .45]

I am sure that this has been discussed before but let me ask the question again. Let's assume hypothetically that an individual owns an antique pistol chambered for .38 rimfire and has the appropriate RCMP letter confirming its antique status and saying basically that under current regulations it is not considered to be a firearm.

Now lets assume this individual finds a way to load .38 rimfire cases and chambers lets say 6 or 5 rounds depending on the cylinder capacity. Now he holsters the "non firearm" and decides to open carry it either in the bush or hypothetically even on the street ( although the latter would be foolish).

Now let's assume you are stopped by the RCMP or a CO and questioned. It's difficult for me to believe that if I present the "non firearm" with a loaded cylinder to the officer that he or she is going to say "Have a nice day" and let me go on my way. When does an antique "non firearm" suddenly become a "loaded firearm"?

If you have a reason to carry, and it is lawful to do so, why get your knickers in a knot over something that is unlikely to happen?

 

[brownbear53]

IIRC it is not considered as a firearm in terms of acquiring it, using it etc. However you are still dictated by 'antique firearm' regulations for storage and transport, as well as discharging it. If your municipality prohibits discharge within its boundaries, you can legally have it on you, but having it loaded will get you a loaded firearm charge just like any other NR/R, and discharging it will get you charged for violating the prior mentioned municipal bylaw.

So Basically, yes you can carry it with you, for the purpose of showing a buddy and talking about how cool antiques are, but not on your hip like a firearm even if there's no intent to use it.

There's also the factor of public hysteria, and a LEO charging you with concealed weapon, regardless of intent, and to prove you were legal and meant no harm would come later in court.

 

[9.3mauser]

An antique is a non-firearm. However, IF used in a crime, the very same confirmed-firearm context charges, can be levied against the person whom committed said crime.

Lets cut to the chase.......
Whom here can confirm that they, or someone that they personally know, has been charged and convicted with any crime, involving or centred around an "antique" designated firearm?

Lets hear it.

A few years ago, a man murdered his wife in a parking lot with an antique cap & ball revolver. I can't remember the exact year, but it was pre-covid, maybe 2018? Peterborough ON, if you want to be bothered to google it.

 

[gallen270]

On the side of the road, I think your encounter is gonna depend on the individual officers knowledge of firearms laws, if there’s a doubt that it’s legal, you’ll probably be losing it temporarily and detained until everything’s straightened out.

 

[KotKotofeich]

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news/...cle_3b2e2259-1290-5b1c-a82d-62a0f63b8366.html

Pretty detailed writeup. Take note of which charges were tossed and which remained in the conviction.

Most important to the current discussion are the charges resulting from him having it loaded and not locked in a case in a location he was not allowed to shoot it. "Possession dsngerous" is also notable as it comes from him being armed while trafficking.

 

[trevj]

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news/...cle_3b2e2259-1290-5b1c-a82d-62a0f63b8366.html

Pretty detailed writeup. Take note of which charges were tossed and which remained in the conviction.

Most important to the current discussion are the charges resulting from him having it loaded and not locked in a case in a location he was not allowed to shoot it. "Possession dsngerous" is also notable as it comes from him being armed while trafficking.

Ayup.

The rough guide version of the Laws, is that as soon as you do something stupid, like say, carrying it holstered in town, waving it at someone to make them go away, or otherwise being involved in Criminal behavior, it gets converted right on up to normal "Firearm" status pretty quickly, as far as the Cops and Judges are concerned.

The Acts are pretty specific about where and how you can "Use" a Firearm, and being somewhere that you cannot legally Use your Prescribed Antique, is still gonna make you wish you chose more wisely!

 

[bush1]

I have an antique S&W .44 Russian that I carry when I'm bow hunting or when I have my hands occupied with tools while I'm in the woods. It is legal to carry an antique pistol anywhere it is legal to carry and/or discharge any non-restricted firearm. In the case of a pistol it must be openly displayed and not concealed under a jacket or whatnot. That can land you a charge of "carrying a concealed weapon". There is a lot of practical information out there from those of us who do carry and the do's and don't's.

According to my CO contact, it’s not allowed to be carried while bow hunting large game. The Ontario Hunting Regulations Summary (which is just a summary of the regs) states;
“Big game including black bears, may only be hunted with a firearm (includes bows). If you are hunting deer or moose at the same time that you are hunting black bear, you must only use or carry (on your person, in a vehicle or boat) a firearm of the type permitted for deer or moose, as the case may be, at that time in that WMU.”

Convoluted yes, but it’s a CO’s opinion based on his interpretation of the laws that one can’t carry a bird gun while bow hunting and the same reasoning is used for antique handguns while bow hunting. Same CO said it’s ok to use an antique handgun to hunt small game in Ontario when you’re not bow hunting.

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news/...cle_3b2e2259-1290-5b1c-a82d-62a0f63b8366.html

Pretty detailed writeup. Take note of which charges were tossed and which remained in the conviction.

Most important to the current discussion are the charges resulting from him having it loaded and not locked in a case in a location he was not allowed to shoot it. "Possession dsngerous" is also notable as it comes from him being armed while trafficking.

Sounds like this judge did some research on the antique firearms laws and actually accordingly.