Antique revolver STOLEN!

[Cameron SS]

I am not hung up on anything...in fact- I agree with you!

I asked for an example of an antique firearm that is also a prohibited firearm.
I was told to read the FA.
I quoted CC 84(3)(a) which says an antique isn't regulated by the FA.
I then restated that the definitions of antiques and prohibs are in the CC.

I am aware of how an antique gets treated as a firearm when offences are committed with it. My point of my earlier posts was to distinguish the CC from the FA, where antiques aren't covered.

Ok, just to make my point clear then.

Section 2 of the CC defines firearm.

Section 84(1) defines Antique. And Handgun. And Prohibited and Restricted. Nothing in law says these are mutually exclusive groups.

Any "barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person," "manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition" that is "designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand," and has "a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length" Would be defined in law as an Antique Prohibited Handgun. Do you agree?

 

[bgcameron]

Ok, just to make my point clear then.

Section 2 of the CC defines firearm.

Section 84(1) defines Antique. And Handgun. And Prohibited and Restricted. Nothing in law says these are mutually exclusive groups.

Any "barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person," "manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition" that is "designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand," and has "a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length" Would be defined in law as an Antique Prohibited Handgun. Do you agree?

I can see how a particular firearm could meet the criteria of both, but in the end there are two separate definitions for "antique firearm" and "prohibited firearm". This part:

(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm

references this: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/page-2.html#docCont

prescribed means prescribed by the regulations

The wording of CC 84 opens up a grey area, but I would say that in general, the statute has more weight towards "antique" in this scenario.

I think it was probably an oversight..whoever wrote this stuff should have added something similar to the definitions of a non-restricted:

non-restricted firearm means

(a) a firearm that is neither a prohibited firearm nor a restricted firearm,

There was some mention earlier in this thread about the Swiss 1882 meeting the CC definitions of prohib as well. How so? Aren't the post-1898 Swiss 1882's restricted? (barrel length and caliber ok)?

 

[Cameron SS]

I can see how a particular firearm could meet the criteria of both, but in the end there are two separate definitions for "antique firearm" and "prohibited firearm". This part: references this: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/page-2.html#docCont


The wording of CC 84 opens up a grey area, but I would say that in general, the statute has more weight towards "antique" in this scenario.

What you have quoted is irrelevant. How a firearm comes to be antique, whether meeting condition 1) Pre 1898 manufacture or condition 2) prescribed by regulation, doesn't matter. Antique is antique.

There is no grey area. Yes there are two definitions, antique firearm, and prohibited firearm. Are you choosing to ignore the fact that I have quoted several additional definitions, all of which can be applied to a single firearm? Shotgun and Rifle are not defined in the criminal code, but those words have dictionary meanings and they are given legal statuses that are separate from a handgun, which is defined. As one example, the definition of prohib includes firearms adapted from rifles or shotguns to have a barrel less than 457mm, firearms which typically have been NR without the modification. This is contrasted with the fact that Handguns at a minimum are restricted, and handguns only become prohibited at a length of 105mm. Clearly the law intends that rifle and handgun be treated as separate mutually exclusive categories.

The classification definitions however, do no such thing.

Imagine a shotgun that is sawed off at the barrel and stock with the intent of making it capable of quick and easy one handed firing, such that the modified shotgun is 600mm in length with a 300mm barrel. This firearm would be both prohibited AND restricted, because it is both NOW a handgun, having been altered and intended to be aimed and fired one handed AND it has been adapted from a rifle or shotgun...

Even if you want to contend that antique is a class of its own (it isn't) separate from NR, Res and Prohib, once again, nothing sets up antiques, prescribed or otherwise, as being mutually exclusive from other classifications. Especially not when you read S 117.15 (3) and (4) of the Criminal Code.

(3) Despite the definitions prohibited firearm and restricted firearm in subsection 84(1), a firearm that is prescribed to be a non-restricted firearm is deemed not to be a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm.

(4) Despite the definition prohibited firearm in subsection 84(1), a firearm that is prescribed to be a restricted firearm is deemed not to be a prohibited firearm.

Note that this mutual exclusivity provisions only affect firearms PRESCRIBED into one class or the other, and not those based on the physical characterists. Nowhere in the code or the antique regulations carry language of this sort.

It sure would be nice if the law did set antiques apart as a class of their own, but alas, the law was written by adult children who have managed to do more damage with their legislative crayons than any normal person will ever do with a firearm.

 

[bgcameron]

So an antique may also be prohibited but because antiques are exempt from the provisions of the FA, no licence is required?

 

[Cameron SS]

So an antique may also be prohibited but because antiques are exempt from the provisions of the FA, no licence is required?

Exactly correct. Not only is it exempt from licensing, but all those other sections of the code as well, such as it does not need to be registered, is not subject to an ATT, can be possessed and openly carried loaded anywhere it is legal to discharge a firearm, It can be sold to anyone with complete impunity, including children, violent offenders and those under a prohibition order, it can be imported and exported from Canada without any paperwork, it can be lost or destroyed without any reporting, and you can lie about it the loss or theft of it to police and CFO.

But it is still prohibited, and is still subject to all of the requirements of the criminal code that are applicable to all firearms, such as S 85 use in commission of an offence, 86 Carelessness and contravention of storage regs, 87 Pointing, 88 Possession for a dangerous purpose, 89 Carrying at a public meeting, 90 Carrying concealed.

 

[bgcameron]

Haha, clear as mud now! ...Good discussion actually

This is sig worthy, and worth quoting again:

the law was written by adult children who have managed to do more damage with their legislative crayons than any normal person will ever do with a firearm.

 

[Thenoobgunsmith]

Exactly correct. Not only is it exempt from licensing, but all those other sections of the code as well, such as it does not need to be registered, is not subject to an ATT, can be possessed and openly carried loaded anywhere it is legal to discharge a firearm, It can be sold to anyone with complete impunity, including children, violent offenders and those under a prohibition order, it can be imported and exported from Canada without any paperwork, it can be lost or destroyed without any reporting, and you can lie about it the loss or theft of it to police and CFO.

But it is still prohibited, and is still subject to all of the requirements of the criminal code that are applicable to all firearms, such as S 85 use in commission of an offence, 86 Carelessness and contravention of storage regs, 87 Pointing, 88 Possession for a dangerous purpose, 89 Carrying at a public meeting, 90 Carrying concealed.

Antiques can not be sold to children, it says on the rcmp website you must be 18 years or older to purchase.

 

[Suther]

my son is the only other person that's ever been in mine

And for that I feel lucky. If I ever had a problem, I have at least 3 friends who I could ditch my guns on until further notice. Then again, I've known them for 15 years and I know their parents, brothers and sisters, ect too. I guess my brother has a pal too, but he annoys me lol

 

[lyman54]

Maybe this creep or someone else will show up at the emergency with part of a hand blown off. Good luck in your search.

 

[762mm]

I believe this is what everyone is arguing about...

C.C.

Exception — antique firearms

(3.1) Notwithstanding subsection (3), an antique firearm is a firearm for the purposes of regulations made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act and subsection 86(2) of this Act.

So, in sum, antiques are deemed "firearms" under 117 h) of the FA and 86(2) of the CC. Both of these are storage, display and transportation provisions.

86(2) Every person commits an offence who contravenes a regulation made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act respecting the storage, handling, transportation, shipping, display, advertising and mail-order sales of firearms and restricted weapons.

117(h) [The Governor in Council may make regulations] regulating the storage, handling, transportation, shipping, display, advertising and mail-order sale of firearms and restricted weapons and defining the expression “mail-order sale” for the purposes of this Act;

 

[cement head]

Alright folks, got an update - the police arrested the perpetrator last week, but they haven't found the gun yet. I can only hope that they do.

You might want to get a better safe. one that is bolted to the floor and doesn't use keys. since buddy who stole your pistol is a dead beat thief I wouldn't doubt that he blabbed to his buddy's that you own firearms. not to sound negative but you should be prepared in case someone else comes looking for your stuff. you never know . he's going to tell his friends he got busted for stealing your gun . and I'll bet he knows where it is .

 

[trainman278]

You might want to get a better safe. one that is bolted to the floor and doesn't use keys. since buddy who stole your pistol is a dead beat thief I wouldn't doubt that he blabbed to his buddy's that you own firearms. not to sound negative but you should be prepared in case someone else comes looking for your stuff. you never know . he's going to tell his friends he got busted for stealing your gun . and I'll bet he knows where it is .

I've since moved - can't be too careful! I do want to get a better storage system once I've got the spare change.

Others have raised the possibility of me getting charged with unsafe storage. As far as I know the O.P.P. have no plans for this. They inspected my safe the day of the theft when I made my statement and were satisfied. I only own NR firearms.

Which is the greater loss, your gun or your "friend" who is sitting in jail and could could probably benefit from someone that hasn't given up on him? Go talk to him and forget about the gun.

With all due respect, absolutely not. You don't just forgive and forget something of this magnitude. We were close friends and I even thought of him as an older brother figure. I've been scarred by this and still cannot believe that he was capable of turning on me so quickly. My life has taken a huge turn for the worse and it is completely his fault.

I think he's had his first court appearance and is back on the streets. I'll try to find out more information. Cops told me when he was arrested they want to put many charges on him.

 

[lupothebutcher]

Well, at least if you're able to provide the police with:
- Information that there was a crime,
- A suspect,
- A location of the suspect,
- Evidence,
Then they MAY be able to "solve" the crime....

 

[cement head]

I've since moved - can't be too careful! I do want to get a better storage system once I've got the spare change.

Others have raised the possibility of me getting charged with unsafe storage. As far as I know the O.P.P. have no plans for this. They inspected my safe the day of the theft when I made my statement and were satisfied. I only own NR firearms.



With all due respect, absolutely not. You don't just forgive and forget something of this magnitude. We were close friends and I even thought of him as an older brother figure. I've been scarred by this and still cannot believe that he was capable of turning on me so quickly. My life has taken a huge turn for the worse and it is completely his fault.

I think he's had his first court appearance and is back on the streets. I'll try to find out more information. Cops told me when he was arrested they want to put many charges on him.

I'm with you . there wouldn't be a chance in hell I'd let buddy off after what he had done to you. as Ex President John Kennedy said forgive them so you can get on with your life but never forget their name. I don't know if he made your life worse but I'm not standing in your shoes . he gave you a wake up call. over the years I have had more people leave me keys to their homes than I can remember . and do you know why ? because they knew I am trustworthy . and truly trustworthy people are few and far between . and I pride myself on being so . if you see him and I was you I wouldn't even talk to him . turn around and walk away . let the police take care of him .


True friends don't do that to who they respect and he didn't respect you . PERIOD. remember if he hands around with others that you hang around with tread softly and figure out whos okay and who's not . keep your personal life just that . I have to go . starting to get angry . I hate dead beat friends .