Antique shotguns

mooncoon

mooncoon

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Something that does not seem to get discussed much is antique shotguns, particularly early hammer cartridge shotguns. There must be a fair number of them out there so lets hear how you like shooting them.

To start things off, I took my Tolley @1875 out to the skeet range yesterday. With open bores both sides, it certainly helps my scores compared to the gun I usually shoot which is bored full and full. The only drawback was that we have a 94 year old member who was able to stagger out through the snow and shoot circles around me. I think I will have to grease the bottom of his cane :>) :>) He is getting fairly frail but still manages to nail the birds.

Tolleyrecieverb.jpg


Tolleyfiringpinb.jpg


cheers mooncoon
 
Nice gun...I too shoot an 1860-70 back action, it's a "NOCK" and I use only black powder, however i find I still have to lead the bird almost double the amount as a modern gun w/smokeless. As long as I remind myself of this before every shot I score higher then with smokeless.
 
I chronographed some black powder loads and compared them to the light smokeless loads that I shoot skeet with. Surprisingly the bp was about 50 fps slower than the smokeless. Surprising because smokeless loads are expressed as drams equivalent and in theory are loaded to the same velocity as that number of drams of black powder.
I don't notice any significant difference in lead between black powder and smokeless but I am sure there would be if you were comparing them with steel shot and factory loads.
I think that the better english doubles are greatly underappreciated and one of the few bargains in the antique world.

cheers mooncoon
 
There was a very nice one in the local shooting store recently .... one that looked a lot like yours. I am now regretting not having purchased it. What put me off was the requirement to use steel shot ..... but after thinking about it, I'm not sure the steel shot would contact the barrel if it is in a sleeve.
 
Don't even think about shooting modern steel loads in one of these old guns. There is potential for real harm or damage.
 
While I don't completely agree with Tiriaq on steel shot, I will make some qualifications. You absolutely do not want to use modern factory shells because I think they operate at higher pressures than earlier lead ones which also are not recommended in old guns. Second point is that if the gun is new enough to be choke bored, the choke boring is almost certainly shorter and probably greater than is currently used for steel; think muzzle pressure and stress. Next point would be that modern guns tend to have longer forcing cones ahead of the chamber which reduces pressure. Many european guns have light barrels and the chamber area tapers rapidly which makes lengthening the cone or the chamber inadvisable. Finally steel shot cups are much thicker than for lead to prevent barrel damage. Using plastic shot cups with black powder runs the risk of melting plastic onto the inside of the barrel.

Bottom line is use lead for trap or skeet and bismuth or heavy shot (tungsten polymer) for hunting.

cheers mooncoon
 
Mooncoon, thanks for that info. I will confess that when it comes to using antique shotguns, I know sweet tweet. Are you saying that modern lead and tungsten polymer loads would be okay in a solid antique shotgun? I don't want to buy a shotgun I cannot use.
 
It depends on what you mean by modern lead and tungsten polymer loads. For my pre 1900 guns, I handload exclusively both with smokeless and with black powder. Some of my guns have a chamber wall thickness as thin as .10" and those I use only with black powder and only assuming the barrels are in good shape. Most shotguns both old and new have a chamber wall thickness of roughly .15" and for the pre 1900 guns I will shoot smokeless loads out of but I load to about 7000 psi. My best guess of chamber pressures, based on Lyman's BP Manual for muzzle loaders, is around 4 to 5000 psi for black powder loads but that is only a guess. When I tried loading as low as 5000 with smokeless, I got a lot of unburnt powder.
For shot, I use lead for skeet and load 1 oz loads in 12 guage and I refer to WW Greener's proof tables for guns of the fourth class (ie double smooth bores) for max powder and shot (his field loads). For hunting (ducks) I use bismuth shot in place of lead and when my current supply runs out will switch to tungsten polymer. While I have never seen the TP or heavy shot which I think is its trade name now, my strong impression at the time it came out a few years ago was that it was intended as a replacement for lead and could be used in damascus guns.
A final thought; the muzzles of the gun should be at least .025" thick some are not and you should be absolutely sure that the ribs are tight and not lifting front or back. The integrity of the rib is less important that the corrosion it may conceal. A final final provision is to tie the gun to a tire and fire it with a long string and a good stout charge before firing from the shoulder.
It does occur to me that Kent cartridge (I think) has offered factory black powder loads in the past and those are probably as safe as your personal handloads. However I don't know if those bp loads are still being offered.

Almost forgot; most european chambers are 2 5/8" not 2 3/4" and intended for roll crimps. I use plastic 2 3/4" shells in them and count on the relative thinness of the shells to keep pressures down. I would not use 2 3/4" paper shells in those chambers because those shells are considerably thicker and presumably would give higher pressures.

cheers mooncoon
 
In my opinion..any gun made prior to 1894 or so,definately should not use anything close to modern loads whether steel or lead. Most of the English guns are damascus and 2 1/2" Chamber, some shoot very light handloads using the slow IMR 7625 and pressure at around 5K. I wouldn't even do that, for me it's black powder only!
 
I would have no concern shooting an old gun, even a damascus, with light modern smokeless loads provided that it was nitro proofed and not screwed around with. I would want a knowledgable gunsmith (e.g. Les Paul, Nick Makinson) to evaluate the gun's condition before I'd considering buying it much less shoot it.

My desire to own an old English hammer gun has yet to be fulfilled largely because the guns I've seen don't make the grade. There is a lot of crap out there. Thin walls, out-of-proof, chambers lengthened from 2-1/2" to 2-3/4" or even 3" by guys who had no clue what they were doing, guns off the face, poorly maintained, the list goes on. :eek:
 
Is that a crack on the stock running from the end of the triggerplate towards the lockplate? Or is it just the picture? If it is a crack fix it before it completely breaks.
 
The wrist was broken right through. I milled a slot in the wrist about 3/4 of the depth of the wrist and 3/8 wide x roughly 3" long. Then epoxied a walnut "cookie" in of almost the same dimension. It seems to be standing up and I have run about 100 shells through the gun so far. The repair is completely hidden under the trigger guard tang.
Ironically I worry that this gun is not damascus and is the only steel barreled gun of its age I have run accross.
In further reply to a couple of posters; I think it is crucial to load these guns with knowledge and that means referring to reputable references as to original loads, referring to modern recent loading tables listing pressures of given loads and powders, and measuring barrel thickness, chamber dimensions and so forth rather than going forth willy nilly with old wives tales of how much powder and shot and so forth. It also means unless you are buying the gun from someone who has shot it and whose loading techniques you know, tying the gun to a tire with a heavy charge although probably not a full proof load and firing it with a string. Knowledgeable as some smiths are, there are things they cannot see and in the end they can only give their best guess.

cheers mooncoon
 
All this info is good to know. I especially agree that we really need to distinguish between facts and old wives tales. I'm going to monitor the local gunshop for old double shotguns and the moment I see something interesting, I'll see if I can get advice here on the particular shotgun.
 
old stuff

Just to add to the last two posts (excellent info) lots of the old BP shotguns are fine to shoot, lots will kill you if you mess around without knowing what you are doing. If you are willing do to the research and become knowledgeable on the subject, great deals are out there because so many take it as read that ANY damascus will blow up on you. My best education on the subject over the years has come from reading Double Gun Journal, but even before that, I was killing ducks at ridiculous ranges with old guns because them old boys really knew how to choke a gun. I don't think there is any area of shooting that demands more care and knowledge to do safely, but the rewards are commensurate. Good Luck.
 
These old timers are discussed (not often enough) in the shotgun forum, I've seldom visited the Antique forum, but now I'll have to.

Mooncoon, that Tolley is a beauty, and the side-lever & captive firing pins are something else!

I shoot vintage SXS regularly, 2 or three rounds of Sporting Clays a week, and I'm very comfortable shooting Damascus guns with "nitro-for-black" reloads. It is a simple task to reload preasure appropriate ammunition which is capable of breaking clays, or taking grouse, ducks & geese.

Here are photos of some of my favorites which I have shared on other forums here.

J.Y. Potter 16 gauge (completely refurbished)
PotteRafter.jpg



J.L Rawbone 10 gauge (built by Westley Richards)
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J. Beattie 12 gauge
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P9162749.jpg


J & W Tolley 20 gauge (work in progress)
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Mark
 
Mark, I'm looking for one exactly like one of those gorgeous doubles of yours. Now I got to get my heart rate down. ...
 
I've got an old 410 hammer sXs that has what looks like the word Parker on the side.
The lever to break the gun open is on the right side of the receiver.
Now the guy I bought it from said it was a Parker, but I'm not convinced.
I've never heard of or seen a Parker with a side-lever.

I also have a cased George Gibbs 12 gauge sXs chambered for 2.5" cases.
I even have the cleaning jags and the original oil-can for it.
 
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