Antique status

[Moe]

I see guns like the following offered for sale. Are these still legal? Have rcmp changed the wording of the laws?
Example 1860 colt with cartridge conversion to 45 cowboy special. Or a 1873 p model colt made pre 1898 in a non restricted cartridge but now rebuilt with 38 special modern cylinder and barrel. Are guns like this still legal?
Do you have to have a frt report which is basically registering your gun with rcmp or can you just have a factory letter proving what your gun is?

You don't actually need any paperwork with you but it would be foolhardy not to have something. If confronted by LEO that is asking for proof it won't go far just stating it's antique. I keep a copy of the FRT report, regs from the firearms act pertaining to antiques, and a copy of the company letter with the gun. Hopefully it will diffuse any encounter with LEO. I had one encounter that the officer didn't even know what an antique class firearm was! In the end she advised me that I should be careful?

In a nutshell the hand gun must be made before 1898, Can't be in or originally one of 11 common calibers of the era or 22 short, 22 long, or 22 lr. For example I have a Colt Peacemaker made in 1893. Originally in 41 Long Colt. Converted to 38 Special. Neither caliber is on of the 11 listed so It's good to go. I have a Colt Letter for it. I have an 8mm French ordnance revolver made in 1892. That caliber is not in the 11 listed so it's good to go. That company is long gone so no factory letter is possible but I keep an FRT report for it with the gun.

Fell free to ask as many questions as you like. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Moe

 

[Valiant]

• 3 A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, whether with a smooth or rifled bore, having a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine.

Law has not changed it never was simply pre 1898 . And pardon me I said tube mag . I was specifically addressing the 40/82 Winchester mention .

Thanks for pointing it out to me. Gosh I read these regulations and I just glaze over sometimes

 

[Valiant]

You don't actually need any paperwork with you but it would be foolhardy not to have something. If confronted by LEO that is asking for proof it won't go far just stating it's antique. I keep a copy of the FRT report, regs from the firearms act pertaining to antiques, and a copy of the company letter with the gun. Hopefully it will diffuse any encounter with LEO. I had one encounter that the officer didn't even know what an antique class firearm was! In the end she advised me that I should be careful?

In a nutshell the hand gun must be made before 1898, Can't be in or originally one of 11 common calibers of the era or 22 short, 22 long, or 22 lr. For example I have a Colt Peacemaker made in 1893. Originally in 41 Long Colt. Converted to 38 Special. Neither caliber is on of the 11 listed so It's good to go. I have a Colt Letter for it. I have an 8mm French ordnance revolver made in 1892. That caliber is not in the 11 listed so it's good to go. That company is long gone so no factory letter is possible but I keep an FRT report for it with the gun.

Fell free to ask as many questions as you like. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Moe

So if someone wanted to get into cowboy action shooting . They buy a pair of original 1858 Remington new army revolvers. Could they fit them with 45acp cylinders from kirsk to shoot at their club? Is this legal option?
The problems with leaving them percussion is against rules to shoot gunfighter (2 guns at once) and can't shoot inside with black powder during winter matches.

 

[C96 1897]

So if someone wanted to get into cowboy action shooting . They buy a pair of original 1858 Remington new army revolvers. Could they fit them with 45acp cylinders from kirsk to shoot at their club? Is this legal option?
The problems with leaving them percussion is against rules to shoot gunfighter (2 guns at once) and can't shoot inside with black powder during winter matches.

Double check that one, i think there's something about converting antique handgun from rimfire to centerfire and vice versa is not okay. possibly the same for converting from percussion to centerfire.

You for sure can convert a 41lc colt new army 1873 peacemaker to 45acp no issues, I just dont know if the frame can handle that, not to mention the ludicrous price tag, 10k+

See the picture below, appears that you can't redesign it from percussion to centerfire or rimfire. But im not a lawyer i could be reading that wrong

 

[tiriaq]

I don't see why an original Remington with a Kirst .45ACP conversion would lose antique status. It would only be an issue if the conversion was to a cartridge on the no-go list.
No idea on whether a Kirst can be fitted to an original Remington. No idea if the 160 year old frame could handle standard ACP loads. Reduced loads would probably be advisable.
There are a couple of patterns of Kirst conversions for Remington pattern revolvers. The simplest version requires cylinder removal to load/reload. If a loading gate is desired, the frame must be permanently altered.

 

[Valiant]

I don't see why an original Remington with a Kirst .45ACP conversion would lose antique status. It would only be an issue if the conversion was to a cartridge on the no-go list.
No idea on whether a Kirst can be fitted to an original Remington. No idea if the 160 year old frame could handle standard ACP loads. Reduced loads would probably be advisable.
There are a couple of patterns of Kirst conversions for Remington pattern revolvers. The simplest version requires cylinder removal to load/reload. If a loading gate is desired, the frame must be permanently altered.

I've researched this online quite a bit. I've seen 1860 colts with kirsk conversion. It's actually currently advertised with stupid price on a different site.
Real Remingtons have terrible reputation even trying to swap original cylinders into them. Pale rider had it wrong. Movie should have had 60 army Colt swapping cylinders. Not the Remington.
I'm betting a uberti cylinder would require alot of work to fit a real antique 1858 new model army but I'm just repeating what I read and heard.
Example people say online that uberti parts won't work on real S&w antique but I know atleast some of them will work with hand fitting. Might take you a few days but u can make it fit .

 

[tiriaq]

As it happens, I have a Remington that is really hurting. It would be a challenge to bring it back to respectable cap and ball condition.

 

[Valiant]

Double check that one, i think there's something about converting antique handgun from rimfire to centerfire and vice versa is not okay. possibly the same for converting from percussion to centerfire.

You for sure can convert a 41lc colt new army 1873 peacemaker to 45acp no issues, I just dont know if the frame can handle that, not to mention the ludicrous price tag, 10k+

See the picture below, appears that you can't redesign it from percussion to centerfire or rimfire. But im not a lawyer i could be reading that wrong

For myself I'm thinking about just getting real colts in 41 and documenting the heck out of them.
I will make sure I clean and oil them before heading home from the gun club so that when the gun thieves take them they won't rust out after I fight in court for years to get them back.
I'm seeing 1st gen colts with crazy price tags right now.
58 Remington conversions would have been cheaper by quite a bit. Of course future lawyer costs will probably be the most expensive thing in all of this. Elbows up,stop the hate (I'm being sarcastic)

 

[Valiant]

As it happens, I have a Remington that is really hurting. It would be a challenge to bring it back to respectable cap and ball condition.

Be careful. I looked at one for sale in Calgary and I wouldn't buy it because he had replaced the barrel. Most of your Remington marks was on the original barrel so I think hard to prove what it was.
They also had the cylinder replaced with a modern percussioncylinder. In a way this is good news because it shows it can be done but the seller couldn't tell me if it was a uberti cylinder or a pietta cylinder. I'm guessing uberti but I'm only guessing.

 

[tiriaq]

I should have been more specific. This '58 would be a challenging restoration project, cap or cartridge. Missing parts, damaged parts, a screw or two to be drilled out. Biggest challenge is that someone bent the grip to achieve a Colt Bisley style. Have to make a jig to return it to original.
At present, the price premium for shootable antique revolvers is remarkable. I personally think that permanently altering them to make them easier to shoot available ammunition is a shame. I think the value should be the value as an antique. It is only a matter of time before this Government pulls the plug on the antique loophole The value of altered antiques will collapse.

 

[Moe]

For myself I'm thinking about just getting real colts in 41 and documenting the heck out of them.
I will make sure I clean and oil them before heading home from the gun club so that when the gun thieves take them they won't rust out after I fight in court for years to get them back.
I'm seeing 1st gen colts with crazy price tags right now.
58 Remington conversions would have been cheaper by quite a bit. Of course future lawyer costs will probably be the most expensive thing in all of this. Elbows up,stop the hate (I'm being sarcastic)

I do see some out there in 38 Special and 455 Webley (AKA 455 Eley, 45 Webley). These calibers are a bit easier to reload for or get factory ammo for than 41LC. Have a look at RW's site for the price over 2 bills for a box of 41! Now that said if you cast your own and are patient enough at reloading to reload heel based 41 bullets and get them crimped in or used undersized hollow based bullets that are soft enough to engage the rifling then 41LC can work for you. It's just not as simple as more common calibers to deal with. Do some research on 41LC before investing in this direction.

There are some black powder substitutes if you want less mess and use smokeless. I've had good luck with Unique and Trailboss.

Cheers
Moe

 

[Moe]

I should have been more specific. This '58 would be a challenging restoration project, cap or cartridge. Missing parts, damaged parts, a screw or two to be drilled out. Biggest challenge is that someone bent the grip to achieve a Colt Bisley style. Have to make a jig to return it to original.
At present, the price premium for shootable antique revolvers is remarkable. I personally think that permanently altering them to make them easier to shoot available ammunition is a shame. I think the value should be the value as an antique. It is only a matter of time before this Government pulls the plug on the antique loophole The value of altered antiques will collapse.

Well I will accept the shame for my Colt that was changed from 41 to 38. It is much easier to reload for but honestly at the time I was looking for one, it was the only one available in the Canadian market and was already converted. At least the barrel and cylinder are Colt. It was also a very good price at the time. As for it's value collapsing from Ottawa fvckery. It really doesn't affect me as I have no desire to ever sell her. She will be in my family forever. I totally get what your saying though.

Cheers
Moe

 

[tokguy]

I've researched this online quite a bit. I've seen 1860 colts with kirsk conversion. It's actually currently advertised with stupid price on a different site.
Real Remingtons have terrible reputation even trying to swap original cylinders into them. Pale rider had it wrong. Movie should have had 60 army Colt swapping cylinders. Not the Remington.
I'm betting a uberti cylinder would require alot of work to fit a real antique 1858 new model army but I'm just repeating what I read and heard.
Example people say online that uberti parts won't work on real S&w antique but I know atleast some of them will work with hand fitting. Might take you a few days but u can make it fit .

Italian parts fit them well. Suspect the bbl threads are metric on the new ones. Close enough for some...not close enough though.

 

[Valiant]

I do see some out there in 38 Special and 455 Webley (AKA 455 Eley, 45 Webley). These calibers are a bit easier to reload for or get factory ammo for than 41LC. Have a look at RW's site for the price over 2 bills for a box of 41! Now that said if you cast your own and are patient enough at reloading to reload heel based 41 bullets and get them crimped in or used undersized hollow based bullets that are soft enough to engage the rifling then 41LC can work for you. It's just not as simple as more common calibers to deal with. Do some research on 41LC before investing in this direction.

There are some black powder substitutes if you want less mess and use smokeless. I've had good luck with Unique and Trailboss.

Cheers
Moe

P model colt 45 is as good as it gets but the difficulty or fun of loading a healed base 41 colt bullets would be a plus for me.
Fun to learn or do something new. Nice to have something a bit different than everyone else.

 

[Valiant]

Italian parts fit them well. Suspect the bbl threads are metric on the new ones. Close enough for some...not close enough though.

I think a lot depends on the actual model of the gun. Example a 1860 different than a S&W or Remington
From what I've read online it seems like Uberti parts are physically closer to originals than pietta.
I think confusion or some people saying parts will work and others say won't work. We'll alot of this might be because a part will work but it probably takes two days of filing, welding and fitting to make it work haha

 

[Valiant]

e. As for it's value collapsing from Ottawa fvckery. It really doesn't affect me as I have no desire to ever sell her. She will be in my family forever. I totally get what your saying though.

Cheers
Moe

It would really suck paying $30,000 for a pair of colts and then having Ottawa declare them illegal

 

[tiriaq]

Uberti and Pietta aren't the only ones who made reproduction percussion revolvers. There were a number of makers, with all sorts of price ranges.
I have an old '60s vintage Centennial Arms 1860 (made in Belgium) and I suspect its parts are very close to original Colt's parts. Had to make a new cylinder pin in for it - threads were Imperial.

 

[tokguy]

I think a lot depends on the actual model of the gun. Example a 1860 different than a S&W or Remington
From what I've read online it seems like Uberti parts are physically closer to originals than pietta.
I think confusion or some people saying parts will work and others say won't work. We'll alot of this might be because a part will work but it probably takes two days of filing, welding and fitting to make it work haha

I have an 1858 Remmy with an Italian bbl and cylinder.
Why I sounded off FYI

 

[struff55]

The law is based on how it was manufactured. So, establishing the original chambering is critical to demonstrating the legality of it.

there was a time when you could get a different cylinder and a recamber but that loop hole has been closed

 

[struff55]

I went to rcmp frt web page.
I just see stuff I can download showing what is illegal. I don't see anything about what antiques are legal.
Honestly I don't really like idea of downloading anything from them.
Can we use Alberta Sheriff's and just avoid Ottawas police?
BTW I have restricted rpal. I'm not a bad guy trying to get around anything. But I'm finding antique rifles and such more appealing everyday because of Ottawa.

antique rifles has nothing to do with the law it's the same as any moder rifle it's only a handgun thing