antique webley in .45 acp

C

Clotho

Regular
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
25   0   0
From an ad in the EE:

looking for a webley in 45 acp, with moon clips. later models more preferable, as they as stronger and can better handle the 45 acp pressures. thanks.

People actually think that you can safely shoot 45 acp factory loads in these... f:P:2:


GrantR (a member here as well) wrote this on the British Militaria Forums: ht tp://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/9296/CAUTION-455-REVOLVERS-ALTERED-SHOOT-45-ACP-45-Auto-Rim#.U9Lw9uNdWuI
I thought it was an excellent post so I have reproduced it here.


CAUTION RE .455 REVOLVERS ALTERED TO SHOOT .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim

This caution is directed at owners of .455 Webley revolvers - or any other revolver originally chambered in .455 for that matter - that have been converted in some manner to chamber and fire .45 ACP cartridges in moon clips (or .45 Auto Rim cartridges without moon clips)

You will likely have been told (or have read) that it is fine to shoot "factory" or "GI Spec" .45 ACP (or .45 Auto Rim) cartridges in your altered .455 revolver, and you may well already have put many such rounds through your revolver without mishap.

Please be aware that in the view of many who are familiar with these revolvers IT IS NOT SAFE TO FIRE SUCH ROUNDS.

Please consider these facts -

1. The operating pressure for the Mark VI Webley revolver (the last, and strongest, of the .455 Webley service revolvers) was a maximum of 13200PSI (i.e. six 'long tons' of 2200 lbs).

2. The standard operating pressure generated by milspec and full factory loads of .45 ACP ball ammunition is 19,000PSI.

3. The pressure of .45 ACP milspec and standard factory loads exceeds the proof load for the Mark VI Webley revolver.

4. The dimensions of the chamber throats on Webley service revolvers are a bit variable, but generally are smaller than bore diameter for some reason - but this system worked well with the original hollowbase bullet design, which was quite soft (20/1 lead/tin) and non-jacketed. These soft bullets swage down passing through the chamber throat (.... my own view is that this was intentional, to get the most out of the relatively small powder charge, and thus maximize the velocity produced ....) but then the base expands nicely to engage the rifling in the bore. However, the general consensus is that jacketed bullets (such as those loaded in most GI-spec .45ACP ammo) can work to dramatically increase the already excessive chamber pressure generated by such rounds.

5. Furthermore, the earlier models of .455 Webley service revolver were not as strong as the Mark VI. Indeed, the Mark I, Mark II and Mark III revolvers were in fact designed for black powder loads.

Although it cannot be denied that many .455 Webley revolvers have survived being subjected for a long time to standard .45 ACP ammunition, that is equivalent to having been fed a steady diet of proof loads. Simply put, it is a testament to the sturdiness of Webley service revolvers, but can hardly be considered either safe or advisable!

Failures can - and do - happen! For example, here is one altered Webley Mark VI which suffered a catastrophic failure firing .45 ACP ammunition -

Blown01a-1.jpg


Blown05a.jpg


In the above photos note that, not only did the cylinder rupture, but the barrel catch (i.e the stirrup which engages the rear of the top strap when the revolver is closed up) has obviously failed as well. Here are some photos of another Mark VI Webley altered to fire .45 ACP, posted by a chap who had just purchased the revolver. Note that the barrel catch had obviously been brazed to repair a similar failure. We were able to caution this fellow that the revolver was likely unsafe to fire with any load, and steer him to where he could get a replacement barrel catch .....

Barrelcatchfailure01.jpg


Barrelcatchfailure02.jpg


You may be wondering what you can do with a .455 revolver altered to take .45 ACP cartridges. Fortunately, if otherwise still sound, the revolver should be quite safe to fire using .45 ACP (or .45 Auto Rim) cases with non-jacketed bullets and reloaded to .455 levels.
 
STD USGI pressures are 12-14,000 +P and +P+ pressures are 19-21,000. I don't know the facts behind the kaboom picture,but no STD 45acp has ever blown out a cylinder in the 50+ years I've been shooting Wooblys,nor have I ever seen a kaboom in a .38S&W shooting issue 9mm.
 
lcardinal said:
STD USGI pressures are 12-14,000 +P and +P+ pressures are 19-21,000. I don't know the facts behind the kaboom picture,but no STD 45acp has ever blown out a cylinder in the 50+ years I've been shooting Wooblys,nor have I ever seen a kaboom in a .38S&W shooting issue 9mm.
Click to expand...

we are talking about guns made to shoot black powder and lead bullets
 
Ya same old picture thats been around for ever.
If so many webley MKIs and MKIIs are blowing up why is it that people have to use that same picture thats been around since the start of the internet LOL
Maby people are not as stupid as some of you guys think and know to reload there 45 acp down or shoot lower powered rounds thru there antique handguns.

If theses guns were blowing up all over the place then in the last 10 years in Canada why is there not one documented case ?
Because people are more carefull than you think.
That picture and a few others out there are old and there was a story it was some hot reloaded target round that caused that cylinder to blow up.
Not factory ammo so the storys and picture dont even match.
more handguns are blowin up by detonation in underloaded reloads from what i have seen (to little powder) than by factory ammo.
Its mostly fear mongering and this thred seems to pop up every few months with the same old picture of a modern gun blowin up under really unknown circumstances.
If you dont know exactly what happened its not being very responsible to post it i think.
I can post pics of car wrecks and blame it all on cell phones but would that be true in every case i think not.

Find something new to post that really happened in Canada with some facts to back it up then it might be worth reading. most of the long time CGN guys know its the same old B.S.
 
Last edited:
dingus said:
Ya same old picture thats been around for ever.
If so many webley MKIs and MKIIs are blowing up why is it that people have to use that same picture thats been around since the start of the internet LOL
Maby people are not as stupid as some of you guys think and know to reload there 45 acp down or shoot lower powered rounds thru there antique handguns.

If theses guns were blowing up all over the place then in the last 10 years in Canada why is there not one documented case ?
Because people are more carefull than you think.
That picture and a few others out there are old and there was a story it was some hot reloaded target round that caused that cylinder to blow up.
Not factory ammo so the storys and picture dont even match.
more handguns are blowin up by detonation in underloaded reloads (to little powder) than factory ammo.
Its mostly fear mongering and this thred seems to pop up every few months with the same old picture of a modern gun blowin up under really unknown circumstances.
If you dont know exactly what happened its not being very responsible to post it i think.
Click to expand...
Thanks for coming to he rescue.Mad Mike Hoare,in all his adventures in Africa is probably the rogue that convinced surplus arms dealers to shave cylinders.If John at Marstar ever rights his book he could verify this.Cheers
 
here is something I recently discovered about how the british pressure tested firearms .

we all know that they are tested to 6 long tons BUT they are tested axially , in a similar manner to the 303 . everyone else does testing radially .

when you convert 6 long tons axial pressure into psi done radially you get just over 15,000 psi , not the 13,000 psi you see quoted everywhere .

when something gets proof tested , it is done at 1 1/2 times over normal running pressure , in the case of the webley I can't see them changing from that standard , so in this case a proof load would be around 22, 500psi .

( The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes 'a Feu Portatives (CIP) rates the .455 Webley Mark II cartridge with a maximum average pressure (MAP) of 900 bar, which is 13,050 psi. At face value, this compares well to the marking stamped on the barrel of my pistol that indicates 6 tons per square inch, or (nominally) 13,440 psi. However, this 6 tons psi is actually copper units of pressure or CUP, not true psi as with the CIP value. Furthermore, it is probably base or axial copper crusher measurement per British Proof House practice, as opposed to radial or side measurement. Using the conversion of British Proof House tons per square inch in true pressure (derived from CIP data) gives 1050 bars and 15,230 psi for 6 tons psi ..... http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html )

just regular , run of the mill 45 acp normally runs closer to 18,000 psi

( The .45 Auto Rim is rated by CIP to 1200 bar, or 17,400 psi, while the standard .45 Auto Colt rates 1300 bar, or 18,850 psi. However, US manufactured .45 ACP ammunition is typically loaded to a much higher level than this; SAAMI permits 21,000 psi for standard loads and 23,000 psi for +P loads. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html )


(According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives guidelines the .45 ACP case can handle up to 130 MPa (19,000 psi) piezo pressure ................ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP )



long story short when you do the math , low pressure 45acp is only running about 20% more pressure than 455 webley .

personally what I think causes a bigger issue , is when you combine the extra pressure with a jacketed bullet and a tight throat .
this combination would send pressures up very high .

but like dingus mentioned , where are the pics of all the exploded hand guns that have been converted to 45acp ?

myself I just keep seeing the same old ones over and over again ... nothing new . if this was a issue the evidence would be out there .

what I do see is a lot of guns that are shot until they are loose , or shot until the jacketed bullets wear out the bore .

and if asked , would I shoot full power jacketed bullets in any converted antique , and I would respond that I like my hands to much to take the risk .
but low pressure factory loadings using cast bullets in a gun that had the proper sized throats , is more than likely a low risk event .


does this help anyone , or confuse the crap out of everyone ?
 
burnt_servo said:
here is something I recently discovered about how the british pressure tested firearms .

we all know that they are tested to 6 long tons BUT they are tested axially , in a similar manner to the 303 . everyone else does testing radially .

when you convert 6 long tons axial pressure into psi done radially you get just over 15,000 psi , not the 13,000 psi you see quoted everywhere .

when something gets proof tested , it is done at 1 1/2 times over normal running pressure , in the case of the webley I can't see them changing from that standard , so in this case a proof load would be around 22, 500psi .

( The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes 'a Feu Portatives (CIP) rates the .455 Webley Mark II cartridge with a maximum average pressure (MAP) of 900 bar, which is 13,050 psi. At face value, this compares well to the marking stamped on the barrel of my pistol that indicates 6 tons per square inch, or (nominally) 13,440 psi. However, this 6 tons psi is actually copper units of pressure or CUP, not true psi as with the CIP value. Furthermore, it is probably base or axial copper crusher measurement per British Proof House practice, as opposed to radial or side measurement. Using the conversion of British Proof House tons per square inch in true pressure (derived from CIP data) gives 1050 bars and 15,230 psi for 6 tons psi ..... http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html )

just regular , run of the mill 45 acp normally runs closer to 18,000 psi

( The .45 Auto Rim is rated by CIP to 1200 bar, or 17,400 psi, while the standard .45 Auto Colt rates 1300 bar, or 18,850 psi. However, US manufactured .45 ACP ammunition is typically loaded to a much higher level than this; SAAMI permits 21,000 psi for standard loads and 23,000 psi for +P loads. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html )


(According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives guidelines the .45 ACP case can handle up to 130 MPa (19,000 psi) piezo pressure ................ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP )



long story short when you do the math , low pressure 45acp is only running about 20% more pressure than 455 webley .

personally what I think causes a bigger issue , is when you combine the extra pressure with a jacketed bullet and a tight throat .
this combination would send pressures up very high .

but like dingus mentioned , where are the pics of all the exploded hand guns that have been converted to 45acp ?

myself I just keep seeing the same old ones over and over again ... nothing new . if this was a issue the evidence would be out there .

what I do see is a lot of guns that are shot until they are loose , or shot until the jacketed bullets wear out the bore .

and if asked , would I shoot full power jacketed bullets in any converted antique , and I would respond that I like my hands to much to take the risk .
but low pressure factory loadings using cast bullets in a gun that had the proper sized throats , is more than likely a low risk event .


does this help anyone , or confuse the crap out of everyone ?
Click to expand...
I totally agree with what you are saying and I thank you for the time in research,except the real actual pressure of std 45 acp is 12-14000 psi only +P+ loads ever reach 21,000.
 
burnt_servo said:
I have read something similar in the past , but I could not find the numbers ..... I believe it has to do with the strength of the brass itself .
Click to expand...

At the moment I,m using a hornady 240gr .429" bumped to .452" in a die I made loaded with 7.5 gr Longshot topped with cream of wheat.in Std 45acp small primer brass.I carry this in a 1911 as my bush gun.Pressure on this load runs right at 20,000 psi calculated.So yes I believe brass strength is a key to retaining ones digits
 
Has anyone ever heard of a converted Webley going through the Birmingham Proof House, and receiving Nitro Proof stamps for .45ACP?
 
tiriaq said:
Has anyone ever heard of a converted Webley going through the Birmingham Proof House, and receiving Nitro Proof stamps for .45ACP?
Click to expand...

I think almost all the MKI**s were. 455 and the ones converted to 45 acp alot were used in WWI its not just french 1873s that were converted people needed guns eh there was a shortage so they did what they could. 45 acp converted guns are apart of our history to even if some people here dont like that.
The reason webley upgraded the guns in 1914 (at the webley factory) and up was because they knew they could handle the ammos of the time they did install newer cylinders and barrels but the frames were pre 1898 still as well as most of the other parts on the guns the barrel latchs which are the weak point on any webley also not changed. would the factory do that if they thought they couldnt handle it ? Also by 1914 i think 455 Domion was pretty hot loaded ammo to if you shoot that yellow boxed 455 Colt ammo its got more kick than say Wolf 45 acp RN lead bullet ammo im not certin on its exact presure (of the modern made Domion 455 Colt) but i bet its close to the same as 45 acp.
455 was smokeless alot earlier than 1914 im pretty sure yet webley was refurbishing guns made pre 1898 and knowing they were going to be used in life and death situations.
Theses MKI** and MKII**s went thru the webley factory post 1898 and were put back into service in the so called smokeless times.
Also its thought that the post 1898 Canadian Navy in esquilmalt used MKIs that were converted to 45 acp the ones that have the CN1 proofs and rack numbers on the back strap.
If you look at Canadas history our guys always seemed to not get the best weapons of the time like the NWMP they got them old Enfields revolvers surplus to the british and im sure our navy it was the same thing im guessing.

Anyway people seem to know that theses guns its best to reload your own ammo but theres lotsa guys shooting factory wolf RN lead bullet ammo in there MKIs and MKIIs everyday in Canada.
The main reason SFRC sells outa Wolf 45 acp lead bullet ammo is Canadians buy it up in bulk for there webleys.
I know alot of guys shooting it in there converted MKIs and MKIIs , they may shoot loose over time maby not, but webleys frames dont strech like a soilid frame gun the cylinder pin wears and any webley that is loose can be tightened up no problem.
I have handled easy over 90 antique Webleys converted to 45 acp and not one of them was junk. some were tight as new and i know some have shot modern ammos thru them.
Not one had buldged chambers or stress cracks its just hear say for the most part that webleys are blowing up and or being damaged this is outa over a 90 or so ive held in my hands over 9 or 10 years.
If one in Canada does show up blowin up i sure want to see pictures and hear exactly what happened but the few pictures out there about webleys blowing up is the same old rehashed info nothing new.
Theres more pics of SAA colts blowin up by "detonation" on the internet (under loaded hand loaded ammo) than webley MKIs to MKVI shooting factory ammo and blowing up .
Any gun can blow up the fact were not seeing this happen with webleys in Canada where most of the pre 1898 webley MKIs and MKIIs are ending up shows people are being carefull more so than some give them credit, there not shooting P loaded hard ball ammos thru there guns or even regular CJ ammo tho some blazer ammo is loaded lighter than even wolf RN lead bullet ammo.
Its always best to reload down with antiques it saves you money and its no doubt easyer on the guns.
 
Last edited:
Very interesting. First time that I have heard that Webleys were officially converted to .45ACP and issued. Are there any photos around of the .45ACP proof marks?
 
tiriaq said:
Very interesting. First time that I have heard that Webleys were officially converted to .45ACP and issued. Are there any photos around of the .45ACP proof marks?
Click to expand...

Im not 100% positive they were factory converted or came to the factory as 45 acp and just upgraded then sent out. me not being around in 1914 its hard to say.
They were upgraded to be used with smokeless ammos of the time in 1914 tho as there factory stamped 1914 and are upgraded.
Theses are antique MKIs and MKIIs that the factory upgraded to MKI** and MKII**s with the aster.
There is no doubt they were converted to 45 acp and used with ammos of the time tho.
I assume because there was a shortage of handguns to be issiued.
some of the 45 acp MKI**s the rear face of the cylinder has that same military black finish as the rest of the gun so i think that would prove they were coming in 45 acp and going out 45 acp.

Im talking about upgraded webley MKI**s and MKII **s they had MKV cylinders eh and barrels factory upgrades which have and extra .0020 chamber wall thickness.
Still the original MKI cylinders have not been blowing up with the same 45 acp wolf ammo as when used in the MKI**s.
Its still better to reload down from factory specs im just showing theses guns are alot better than some here think. they have been there done that.
 
Last edited:
The .45ACP round loaded in half moon clips appeared in 1917 with the Colt and S&W M1917 revolvers.
Don't know how a .45 ACP Webley would have been used prior to 1917 without the clips.
 
tiriaq said:
The .45ACP round loaded in half moon clips appeared in 1917 with the Colt and S&W M1917 revolvers.
Don't know how a .45 ACP Webley would have been used prior to 1917 without the clips.
Click to expand...

The moon clips were first made in 1908 so the MKI** and MKII** could have been offered in 45 aCP see Copy and paste below from wiki....

There was a antique speedloader made for 455 ammo in Webley revolvers eh so anythings posible.

From Wiki.
The modern moon clip was devised shortly before World War I (circa 1908).[1] The device then became widespread during the war, when the relatively new M1911 semi-automatic pistol could not be manufactured fast enough for the war effort. The U.S. War Department asked Smith & Wesson and Colt to devise ways to use the M1911's .45 ACP rimless cartridge in their revolvers. The result was the M1917 revolver, employing moon clips to chamber the military-issue .45 ACP ammunition.[2] Smith & Wesson invented and patented the half-moon clip, but at the request of the Army allowed Colt to also use the design free of charge in their own version of the M1917 revolver.


From what im reading from Wiki ^ they needed guns just as i said in my other posts, so anything that could be upgraded into useing 45 acp so that makes sence that they made the MKI** in the first place they needed guns that could be used with the more common ammo of the times.
Thats why they used MKV cyclinders and barrels in MKI and MKII frames no doubt.

Keep in mind... Necessity is the mother of invention :)

MKI** and MKII**s are stronger than MKIs and MKIIs , the chamber walls are thicker.

All this said in pre 1898 webleys not upgraded its still better to reload your 45 acp down to at least 455 MKII fiochhi presures.
5 grs of unique with a lead 250 Gr SWC sized .452 is a good safe target load in a 45 acp case you can use lighter bullets to and stick with lead bullets.
 
Last edited:
"Could have been offered in .45ACP". OK.
Are any of these altered Webleys period proof marked for .45ACP?
British proofing requirements are very specific. Revolvers would not have been altered and issued without being proofed.
I remember when these revolvers were dumped as surplus. Retail was US$9.95. For a few dollars extra, they were offered with shaved cylinders to accept clipped ACP or Auto Rimmed ammunition. These were being altered to facilitate sale 50 years ago, .455 ammunition being uncommon in the US at the time. These were not Brititsh issued as .45ACP.
 
Why are people making such a big deal over this? Essentially antique pistol shooting is an assumed risk sport bottom line. It goes without say that if you are going to shoot certain modern rounds such as 45 ACP from a webley or a french 1873 that you either load it yourself or find rounds that are loaded to low pressure, this argument is stupid!!!

The fact of the matter is, the safety of the sport comes down to the user! Some people drive cars that are capable of speeds in excess of 100 MPH, but there is a good chance that the tires on the car can not stand the heat generated from driving at that speed for very long and will eventually disintegrate. Does this make the car any less safe?

Buy an antique in whichever caliber suits you, do some research, be safe and shoot in your backyard!!! ........ if it safe to do so lol
 
max-power said:
Why are people making such a big deal over this? Essentially antique pistol shooting is an assumed risk sport bottom line. It goes without say that if you are going to shoot certain modern rounds such as 45 ACP from a webley or a french 1873 that you either load it yourself or find rounds that are loaded to low pressure, this argument is stupid!!!

The fact of the matter is, the safety of the sport comes down to the user! Some people drive cars that are capable of speeds in excess of 100 MPH, but there is a good chance that the tires on the car can not stand the heat generated from driving at that speed for very long and will eventually disintegrate. Does this make the car any less safe?

Buy an antique in whichever caliber suits you, do some research, be safe and shoot in your backyard!!! ........ if it safe to do so lol
Click to expand...


you have couple of groups of people here doing this .

first off are the "know it all safety Nazi's". nothing wrong with being safe , or nicely reminding people of possible issues , but some people take this way too far , to the point that they seem to get off on it ...... and the funny thing is most of the time they do not have first , or even 2nd hand knowledge about what they are talking about .

the second group I see , and this is the group of people we need to watch carefully , because they can undermine and screw things up for everyone ....
they are people who for what ever reason feel that no one should be able to carry and use antique handguns , and it pisses then off to no end that people are finding ways of legally using their antiques , so the use fear mongering , 1/2 truths and twisting the laws to make it seem like using what appears to be modern ammunition , is unsafe , illegal , immoral and fattening .
an example of this is , how many times have we heard that it is illegal to use modern ammo in a antique ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom