antique webley in .45 acp

max-power said:
Why are people making such a big deal over this? Essentially antique pistol shooting is an assumed risk sport bottom line. It goes without say that if you are going to shoot certain modern rounds such as 45 ACP from a webley or a french 1873 that you either load it yourself or find rounds that are loaded to low pressure, this argument is stupid!!!

The fact of the matter is, the safety of the sport comes down to the user! Some people drive cars that are capable of speeds in excess of 100 MPH, but there is a good chance that the tires on the car can not stand the heat generated from driving at that speed for very long and will eventually disintegrate. Does this make the car any less safe?

Buy an antique in whichever caliber suits you, do some research, be safe and shoot in your backyard!!! ........ if it safe to do so lol
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Well said i agree i only posted in this thred to counter that picture thats been around since the dawn of the internet that keeps getting used over and over.
As to tiriaqs question, are they factory stamped/proofed 45 acp some guns are marked 45 acp but anyone could have added the 45 ACP stamp webley didnt mark the 455 caliber on there military MKIs and MKIIs only the comercial models so why would they start stamping them 45 acp ? They were doing the upgrades to get guns into fighters hands for the war ive seen alot of upgraded webleys some were more rushed thru the factory than others but they were NP marked some had extra NP markings added some did not.
You could be right that they were altered later to 45 acp but 45 acp has been shot in theses guns safely for over 100 years. I have seen a few ones with military finish that were 45 acp set up again they could have been refinishhed as well later.

All the webley MKI** and MKII** that are upgraded are restamped in some manner they used MKV cylinders which are smokeless cylinders it was done in 1914 so smokeless was used.
The fact is 45 acp has been used in them for over 100 years i have seen 90+ guns 45 acp ones that there was nothing wrong with that are all still shooting.
There is no proof in Canada that they are blowing up so theses threds that keep coming up are Just pure BS anyone can blow up any gun if there not carefull.
so what if the factory never sent them out stamped for 45 acp the proof is in the current use over 100 years.
I dont buy that there blowing up like some people say im just not seeing it where are the blowin up parts guns on Gun Broker or other web sites ???
I have not seen one webley MKI or MKII blowin up for sale as parts and you can bet there would have been a few in 10 years of looking.
people for the most part are carefull what they shoot in theses guns.
Same story with the French 1873s converted to 45 acp if people use common sence then there should have no problems with theses guns.
 
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burnt_servo said:
you have couple of groups of people here doing this .

first off are the "know it all safety Nazi's". nothing wrong with being safe , or nicely reminding people of possible issues , but some people take this way too far , to the point that they seem to get off on it ...... and the funny thing is most of the time they do not have first , or even 2nd hand knowledge about what they are talking about .

the second group I see , and this is the group of people we need to watch carefully , because they can undermine and screw things up for everyone ....
they are people who for what ever reason feel that no one should be able to carry and use antique handguns , and it pisses then off to no end that people are finding ways of legally using their antiques , so the use fear mongering , 1/2 truths and twisting the laws to make it seem like using what appears to be modern ammunition , is unsafe , illegal , immoral and fattening .
an example of this is , how many times have we heard that it is illegal to use modern ammo in a antique ?
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This is very true ^
Its good to see the guys who get this and post on CGN.
we have to post in theses B.S threds whenever they come up being as they come up again and again with the same old pictures and storys the storys even more twisted than there original posts.
Theres a small group on CGN that start theses threds over and over.
 
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This is not a new phenomenom. About every 6 months a new member thinks he's made a life-changing discovery that he wants to protect us from. Bravo.

It really isn't very complicated. Load these pistols to the pressure they were designed for. If you don't know what that is then you really aren't qualified to load ammo for them. Go away and come back when you have it figured out. Antique pistols require more effort and attention than shooting or reloading for a modern firearm. If you can't accept that then you shouldn't be here, even if your mommy says it's OK. :)

OTOH, these pistols are incredibly overbuilt. Tens of thousands of them were sold to surplus dealers and converted to use 45acp moon clips for the US market. That was 60 years ago - and a lot of those pistols are still going strong. Catastrophic failures are very rare and I will explain why.

I DON'T and WON'T use 45 acp factory ammo in any of mine simply because I think it would be stupid to do so and I don't need to. I own antique firearms because I appreciate the historical significance and enjoy tinkering with old guns. I load 45acp down to 12.5K psi pressure levels for use in these old guns.

I am a recovering webley addict. That will help to explain why I have owned, shot, repaired, and rebuilt approximately 20-25 Webley MKI and MKII .455 Service Revolvers, about half of which were the converted .45acp pistols. I can spot the ones that have been used heavily with full power 45acp loads because the hinge and latch will be loose and / or damaged. The frames wear out far long before the cylinder chambers or barrels. The barrels might be devoid of rifling from having been shot with hardpoint surplus ammo, but they are still capable of shooting safely until the frame latch and hinges give out. The cylinder lock up is dependant on a tight hinge and so it goes to hell as well. And that is why they are known as "wobbly webleys".

These old guns were made in a different era far removed from our ability to comprehend - when workmanship, pride, and quality were as important as profit - when making something to last for 100 years was not an exceptional thing. In the 1880s engineering was not as precise as we can calculate today and large safety factors were figured in. Tens of thousands of these pistols were converted to 45acp and tens of thousands of people have used them extensively.

The problem with ALL old guns is that the inspection process was limited. There may be an inclusion, crack, or fault at the molecular level in ANY steel or iron barrel but modern manufacturing methods are more likely to be fault-free, or to find the faults. Shooting old guns is an inherently risky thing to do when compared to modern firearms. That is part of the deal of shooting old guns. Accept it or move on to something else.

The other problem with ALL old guns is that we don't know what has been done to them or how many rounds they've shot, or what kind of reloads were used in them. That is part of the deal with old guns. Accept it or move on.

This is not a hobby for the safety nazi who believes the rest of the world is as incompetent as he. Accept it or move on.

I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings. But if I did - accept it and move on. :)
 
As in literally every argument, both sides have a point here, and the one with the most to lose gets the most heated and offended. People that collect, trade in, or enjoy an item being criticized will always do the most research to defend it. You see it with everything from classic cars to Scotch, to antique guns. This can result in some excellent information being unearthed, as it appears prior to looking into it burnt servo has relayed with the axial versus radial pressures.

I fall on the side that avoids .45 ACP antiques, and while I'm not offended by a classically converted antique, many are offended by the view I gained by way of GrantR's original post years ago. I also owned a legal antique SAA in .45 ACP that had a binding cylinder pin, and only after careful examination did I find the top strap was stretched. I'm pretty comfortable saying .45 ACP factory loads were likely the reason. Few here would argue the antique Webley is stronger than the SAA, some might, and I'll listen to the argument. The fact my SAA was likely damaged by .45 ACP and that I view it as stronger than the Webley has lead me to be suspect of converted Webleys. Like all of us I've rattled a good few loose ones too. I don't trust people I don't know or have never met, such as owners forty years ago and more who likely didn't hand load or have a lot of inclination to baby a $10 surplus gun. This said, that's a testament to the Webley's strength they've survived it, indeed.

I don't look down on people who buy them, but I would caution new owners to consider it. As mentioned, it's a risky pursuit and we understand that, we all make our choice for ourselves what we will accept.
 
Outside of the preaching, there is nothing in this thread that is newsworthy or that wasn't discussed every 3 months for the last 10 years. Maybe it should be a sticky so we don't have to listen to it again (and again and again). Then next time a newb wants to know, we could send him to the sticky and not have to reiterate the same old scat ad infinitum.
 
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Here is my .2 cents:

If I have .455 Webley converted to shoot 45 ACP, I will load my ammo, using soft lead hollow base bullets, to .455 pressure level. No more, period.

And I will never use standard 45 ACP ammo in Webley. As we all know, 45 ACP ammo has higher pressure than .455 Webley. However, that is not full story. If you measure unaltered Webley (talking about cylinder chambers), you will find that front side of Webley cylinder has usually openings .447-.449. This is not fluke, it's done on purpose, to bump the pressure of the ammo with black powder, and to get bullet working properly in .450-.452 groove dia barrel. Also, original Webley ammo has soft lead bullet with hollow base that will pass through undersize cylinder and expand in barrel, and grab the rifling.

So, if we fire 45 ACP ammo with jacketed bullet, at 18000 psi, because of the restricted cylinder bore, I would not be surprised if the pressure is higher than nominal 18000 psi.

In other words, why to push old Webley beyond it’s design parameters? If you want to shoot standard 45 ACP, especially +P or +P+, get the proper gun for such ammo.
 
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@Flame suit on@
I've shot plenty of .45 acp ball ammo though a few wobbley webleys. All shot just fine, I still have both eyes and all my fingers. I did have the locking latch break on one.

I'm older and I like to think wiser now... I don't shoot standard pressure jacketed ammo in old guns anymore. However, I might do it in dire circumstance.
 
No flame called for or required, they all received that treatment back in the day, and that's what concerns some folks. Essentially, nothing but ball existed when they were converted, and it's to be expected they've all seen it and in good supply. The fact they have survived it well as they have, is indeed a testament to the Webley.
 
All the military webley MKI and MKIIs ive had and thats alot all had .450 up to .452 chamber throats measured with calipers.
So im not seeing the .447 or even .449 ones not saying there isnt some tighter throat guns out there but outa alot all the ones ive had anyway they were all over .450 a tho or two.
So theres no presure spike with the right sized 45 acp bullets there at all, UNLESS you shoot .455 webley bullets in them there would be more presure made pushing a .455 bullet down a .450 or .452 Bore than pushing a .452 bullet down the same bore thru the same throat.
the bores on all of the military ones are the same that i have seen .450 or up tp .452 same as the chamber throats thats me measureing alot of guns.
Comercial Webley MKI ands MKII guns can have chamber throats up to .460 thats the 455/476 cal marked guns.

Also not to argue but what i have read about the term wobbly webleys is the wobbly came from the biger cylinder stop notch in the webley MK 4s and up cylinders, so when the hammers down you can move the cylinder side to side because of that big stop notch. makes the guns feel wobbly as that cylinder is able to move alot side to side compared to a S&W or SAA colt.
The reason webley did that was so when the gun droped in a mud filled trench or desert sands the guns would still function.
Try droping a MKI or MKII in mud with there cylinder stop notchs being so tight with the cylinder bolts any dirt in there at all and the stop bolt wont engage.
The reason webleys MKVIs were so good in combat was they could be droped in the mud picked up and used and plenty were.
But that bigger stop notch you see on MKIVs MKVs and MKVIs and MKI** and MKII**s is why they got the nick name wobbly webleys came from.
There great guns and its always best to use lead bullets and reload your ammo tho i do know a few guys who use CJ Bullets to.
Lead is just better for theses. im sure CJ ammo will wear a bore down faster to if you wanrt to keep your bores nice, clean lead bullets are the way to go.
I always tell people to buy Jethunters bullets because he casts his softer than any others i have had. there good quality to.
 
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Most of the throats i measured have been .451-.452" on the MKI/II. Occasionally there is one bigger but that might also be due to erosion. It is not easy to get a good measurement on the throats. The only time i've found throat size under .450" also had leading issues.

Personally I think the HB bullet design was used to increase case capacity more than anything else. I have read the theories of the tight throats being designed to increase pressure but i am a bit sceptical. Soft-ish lead bullets won't encounter much resistance in a .001-.002" restriction. A proper fitting bullet with a proper throat and barrel dimensions will produce the same velocity more effectively and accurately. Swaging a bullet down to smaller than bore diameter and then relying on a thin hollow skirt to seal the bore and provide horizontal stabilization is a rather silly way to go about it, but the British War Department was heavily involved in the design of these pistols so perhaps it is possible given what we know about government bureaucracies and design by committee.
 
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