Antique Winchester 1873?

Robert22

Robert22

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Howdy,

I'm posting for a friend here: we've been trying to figure out what year his rifle is from, and I figured people here would know best!
The barrel is octagonal, and the barrel says it's "Nickle Plated Steal" for "smokeless cartridges", it's chambered for .30 W.C.F. the serial number begins with 49*** and is 5 numbers long. I could not get a picture, but it resembles this Wikipedia photo

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Winchester_Model_1873_Short_Rifle_1495.jpg

However the receiver does not have that other plate surrounding by the loading gate.
Thanks for your time!

-Robert
 
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Wow, you guys are way off! That rifle would be an 1894, made in I'd guess 1895 or 96, without looking up the number. And the barrel should read "NICKEL STEEL BARREL" with "ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER" . The 1873 was only chambered in short cartridges, the .32, .38, and .44 WCF's. Also .22 Rimfire. The 1894 was chambered in .32-40, .38-55, .30WCF, .25-35, and .32WS.
 
Some of them came with the tang sight, others had them added. I believe the ones that came with the rifles had the rifle serial number on the underside of the base, but I might be wrong. In any case, don't take it off to look. The front screw is often seized up, and the head gets ruined easily.
 
BUSHMAN79 said:
Some of them came with the tang sight, others had them added. I believe the ones that came with the rifles had the rifle serial number on the underside of the base, but I might be wrong. In any case, don't take it off to look. The front screw is often seized up, and the head gets ruined easily.
Click to expand...

Awesome advice! I'm interested in getting this gun out to a range. I imagine I should get it inspected by a gunsmith prior to use? As it's been sitting in an attic for decades. It does #### fine, and I have dry fired it, and it clicks. I don't suppose the modern .30 WCF (which is .30-30 is it not?) cartridges would rupture the bore?
 
It is much too dangerous to shoot, you should just send it to me and I'll take care of it.... Ha! Just kidding! Make sure the bore is nice and clean, and the firing pin moves freely. You should be able to see the pin move back and forth as you tip the rifle with the bolt open. About the only things that ever break are the firing pin tip, and the loading gate, and neither happen frequently.

Winchester used good steel, and it's rare to find cracks or anything in even ancient rifles like that one. If it looks good, feeds and extracts, etc. take it out and shoot it. Stick to standard .30-30 ammo, no "Leverrevolution" or whatever, and it will be fine. Them rifles are very accurate, much better than the carbines.

Where are the pics?
 
BUSHMAN79 said:
It is much too dangerous to shoot, you should just send it to me and I'll take care of it.... Ha! Just kidding! Make sure the bore is nice and clean, and the firing pin moves freely. You should be able to see the pin move back and forth as you tip the rifle with the bolt open. About the only things that ever break are the firing pin tip, and the loading gate, and neither happen frequently.

Winchester used good steel, and it's rare to find cracks or anything in even ancient rifles like that one. If it looks good, feeds and extracts, etc. take it out and shoot it. Stick to standard .30-30 ammo, no "Leverrevolution" or whatever, and it will be fine. Them rifles are very accurate, much better than the carbines.

Where are the pics?
Click to expand...

I'll post some as soon as I get it home :0) I'm buying it from my friend as he is not into shooting whatsoever. So I guess I'm lucky!
 
You are lucky! My favourite carry rifle is the 1894 rifle, but with round barrel. The round barrel is better balanced, I find. Shot lots of deer and raccoons with it. It really says something for Winchester, that a guy can pack a 100 year old rifle in bear country with complete confidence in it. I've never personally had a part break on any of my Winchesters, many of which are used a lot.
 
BUSHMAN79 said:
You are lucky! My favourite carry rifle is the 1894 rifle, but with round barrel. The round barrel is better balanced, I find. Shot lots of deer and raccoons with it. It really says something for Winchester, that a guy can pack a 100 year old rifle in bear country with complete confidence in it. I've never personally had a part break on any of my Winchesters, many of which are used a lot.
Click to expand...

This is awesome. I did really luck out.
 
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Polishing room records show 1898....nm, Meanea got it. Note to self, read to end of threads before posting...

And while the 1873 is a very cool rifle, having a real early 1894 like that is darned awesome too.
 
Meanea said:
48468 - 10-15-1898
48466 - 10-15-1898
49796 - 12-28-1898
49809 - 11-10-1898
49980 - 12-19-1898
50840 - 9-13-1899

49*** would give you about Nov-Dec 1898 but sill not an antique because of Mag and caliber
Meanea
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Where are you getting your serial data?
Three sources state Jan.1,1896 was serial number 44360 and 32104 rifles were produced that year. The end of 1898 was around 140,000. Check out Proofhouse.com. Maybe these numbers are wrong?

Just read the above post. So are all of these formerly accepted Winchester numbers wrong. The old sources seem to be waaaay off.
 
These are great guns to shoot but i believe thy do not fall under antique class of firearms and must be regetered dutch
 
Mike Webb said:
Where are you getting your serial data?
Three sources state Jan.1,1896 was serial number 44360 and 32104 rifles were produced that year. The end of 1898 was around 140,000. Check out Proofhouse.com. Maybe these numbers are wrong?CORRECT are wrong
Just read the above post. So are all of these formerly accepted Winchester numbers wrong. The old sources seem to be waaaay off.
Click to expand...

Only 1 source, BBHC.org
original factory records
Meanea
 
Mike Webb said:
Where are you getting your serial data?
Three sources state Jan.1,1896 was serial number 44360 and 32104 rifles were produced that year. The end of 1898 was around 140,000. Check out Proofhouse.com. Maybe these numbers are wrong?

Just read the above post. So are all of these formerly accepted Winchester numbers wrong. The old sources seem to be waaaay off.
Click to expand...

I'm getting it from under the receiver, the number is stamped.
 
Mike Webb said:
Where are you getting your serial data?
Three sources state Jan.1,1896 was serial number 44360 and 32104 rifles were produced that year. The end of 1898 was around 140,000.
Click to expand...

1896 started out about
10,000
7566 - 10-17-1895
11020 - 12-10-1895
12356 - 3-26-1896
12695 - 11-4-1896
12962 - 7-30-1896
12970 - 5-21-1897
13135 - 4-14-1896
and ended up at about
16,000-17,000
16400 - 10-26-1896
16582 - 10-3-1896
17819 - 3-11-1897
17862 - 12-16-1896

140,000 was about 1902
139319 - 12-13-1902
139676 - 3-14-1902
142899 - 5-10-1902
145358 - 7-29-1902
Meanea
 
The previous Archives Boss as the BBHC dug up/discovered the Winchester Factory Polishing Room records which were not previously used by Madis when he did his original work. They showed some major discrepancies in Madis' work, not intended to cause upset or harm to anyones rep (Madis is THE Winchester guy, but he did his research based on the spotty records that he had access to at the time) but in many cases the serials from the polishing room records were significantly different from the numbers quotes in Madis' work.

Winchester 1894/94 Serial Number List


Determining date by serialization has become confusing as it has been determined by the staff of the Cody Firearms Museum that previous work by George Madis is incorrect. This is not due to the quality of work performed by Mr. Madis, but by the questionable data provided to him. The following list includes the data held at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody Wyoming (CFM) and the previously understood figures (Madis). It is up to the collector to make the best use of this data that they can.

1894 end of year serial number was 1674 (CFM), 14579 (Madis)
1895 end of year serial number was 14222 (CFM), 44359 (Madis)
1896 end of year serial number was 18571 (CFM), 76464 (Madis)
1897 end of year serial number was 33108 (CFM), 111453 (Madis)
1898 end of year serial number was 53941 (CFM), 147684 (Madis)

Any gun manufactured prior to January 1, 1899 is legally an Antique and is not affected by any federal regulations regarding the ownership or transfer of firearms.
1899 end of year serial number was 80148 (CFM), 183371 (Madis)
1900 end of year serial number was 103932 (CFM), 204427 (Madis)
1901 end of year serial number was 137058 (CFM), 233975 (Madis)
1902 end of year serial number was 168420 (CFM), 273854 (Madis)
1903 end of year serial number was 204565 (CFM), 291506 (Madis)
1904 end of year serial number was 249782 (CFM), 311363 (Madis)
1905 end of year serial number was 291706 (CFM), 337557 (Madis)
1906 end of year serial number was 331895 (CFM), 378878 (Madis)
1907 end of year serial number was 381524 (CFM), 430985 (Madis)
1908 end of year serial number was 429757 (CFM), 474241 (Madis)
1909 end of year serial number was 449102 (CFM), 505831 (Madis)
1910 end of year serial number was 479073 (CFM), 553062 (Madis)
1911 end of year serial number was 534429 (CFM), 599263 (Madis)
1912 end of year serial number was 591281 (CFM), 646114 (Madis)
1913 end of year serial number was 645304 (CFM), 703701 (Madis)
1914 end of year serial number was 722280 (CFM), 756066 (Madis)
1915 end of year serial number was 825186 (CFM), 784052 (Madis)
1916 end of year serial number was 840846 (CFM), 807741 (Madis)
1917 end of year serial number was 873425 (CFM), 821972 (Madis)
1918 end of year serial number was 882032 (CFM), 838175 (Madis)
1919 end of year serial number was 895365 (CFM), 870762 (Madis)
1920 end of year serial number was 926851 (CFM), 880627 (Madis)
1921 end of year serial number was 935778 (CFM), 908318 (Madis)
1922 end of year serial number was 951501 (CFM), 919583 (Madis)
1923 end of year serial number was 964709 (CFM), 938539 (Madis)
1924 end of year serial number was 974121 (CFM), 953198 (Madis)
1925 end of year serial number was 987148 (CFM), 978523 (Madis)
1926 end of year serial number was 997938 (CFM), 997603 (Madis)
1927 end of year serial number was 1012753 (CFM), 1027571 (Madis)
1928 end of year serial number was 1038665 (CFM), 1054465 (Madis)
1929 end of year serial number was 1060899 (CFM), 1077097 (Madis)
1930 end of year serial number was 1071420 (CFM), 1081755 (Madis)
1931 end of year serial number was 1079689 (CFM), 1084156 (Madis)
1932 end of year serial number was 1088141 (CFM), 1087836 (Madis)

1933: 1092328 (CFM), 1089270 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,089,271 (actual Madis)
1934: 1095364 (CFM), 1091190 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,091,192 (actual Madis)
1935: 1099625 (CFM), 1099605 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,099,608 (actual Madis)
1936: 1119104 (CFM), 1100065 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,112,194 (actual Madis)
1937: 1158835 (CFM), 1100679 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,138,781 (actual Madis)
1938: 1198405 (CFM), 1100915 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,169,370 (actual Madis)
1939: 1216165 (CFM), 1101051 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,197,211 (actual Madis)
1940: 1259563 (CFM), 1142423 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,238,584 (actual Madis)
1941: 1313301 (CFM), 1191307 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,287,648 (actual Madis)
1942: 1343183 (CFM), 1221289 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,317,830 (actual Madis)
1943: 1343190* (CFM), 1267741* (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,348,192 (actual Madis)
1944: 1343196 (CFM), 1314193* (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,378,554 (actual Madis)
1945: 1352066 (CFM), 1360645* (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,408,916 (actual Madis)

1933 end of year serial number was 1092328 (CFM), 1089270 (Madis)
1934 end of year serial number was 1095364 (CFM), 1091190 (Madis)
1935 end of year serial number was 1099625 (CFM), 1099605 (Madis)
1936 end of year serial number was 1119104 (CFM), 1100065 (Madis)
1937 end of year serial number was 1158835 (CFM), 1100679 (Madis)
1938 end of year serial number was 1198405 (CFM), 1100915 (Madis)
1939 end of year serial number was 1216165 (CFM), 1101051 (Madis)
1940 end of year serial number was 1259563 (CFM), 1142423 (Madis)
1941 end of year serial number was 1313301 (CFM), 1191307 (Madis)
1942 end of year serial number was 1343183 (CFM), 1221289 (Madis)
1943 end of year serial number was 1343190* (CFM), 1267741* (Madis)
1944 end of year serial number was 1343196 (CFM), 1314193* (Madis)
1945 end of year serial number was 1352066 (CFM), 1360645* (Madis)
1946 end of year serial number was 1407097* (Madis)
1947 end of year serial number was 1453549* (Madis)
1948 end of year serial number was 1500000 (Madis)
1949 end of year serial number was 1626100 (Madis)
1950 end of year serial number was 1724295 (Madis)
1960 end of year serial number was 2469821 (Madis)
1963** end of year serial number was 2586000 (Madis)
1964*** end of year serial number was 2700000 (Madis)
1965 end of year serial number was 2894428 (Madis)
1966 end of year serial number was 2991927 (Madis)
1967 end of year serial number was 3088458 (Madis)
1968 end of year serial number was 3185691 (Madis)
1969 end of year serial number was 3284570 (Madis)
1970 end of year serial number was 3381299 (Madis)
1980 end of year serial number was 4892951 (Madis)
1981 end of year serial number was 5024957 (Madis)
1982 end of year serial number was 5103248 (Madis)
Estimate after 1982 by adding 100000 per year.
* Some serial numbers produced during and after World War II were not recorded. These serial number figures assume an equal number produced each year of these gaps in the record.
** 1963 saw the end of the classic Winchesters made with hand-finished cast parts.
*** 1964 began with 2700000 and ended with 2797428. Numbers 2586001 through 2699999 were not used.
Website
http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/
http://armscollectors.com/sn/winlookup.php

Correction to Kennedy's Information
The following Corrections to David Kennedy's data given about are submitted by:
TexasBear10@netscape.net
7/10/2010

The information by David Kennedy and posted here are of great value to Winchester collectors and the following corrections should in no way take away from his valuable work. He is now aware of this error and has not had time to make a correction. He just assumed that the tables published by others were taken from Madis information.

The dates attributed to Madis by Kennedy do not agree with those in Madis' books: The Winchester Book & Winchester Handbook. They do agree with the dates in Schwing, Pirkle (and most "Others") books & tables. The differences are:

1894: 1674 (CFM); 14579 (attributed to Madis, really "Others" 14759 (actual Madis)
Notice the transposing of the "57" and "75" in these dates? Which is correct?

Then in 1933 the dates attributed by Kennedy to Madis start varying from what is published in his books, and by 1936 take a major deviation:

1933: 1092328 (CFM), 1089270 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,089,271 (actual Madis)
1934: 1095364 (CFM), 1091190 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,091,192 (actual Madis)
1935: 1099625 (CFM), 1099605 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,099,608 (actual Madis)
1936: 1119104 (CFM), 1100065 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,112,194 (actual Madis)
1937: 1158835 (CFM), 1100679 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,138,781 (actual Madis)
1938: 1198405 (CFM), 1100915 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,169,370 (actual Madis)
1939: 1216165 (CFM), 1101051 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,197,211 (actual Madis)
1940: 1259563 (CFM), 1142423 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,238,584 (actual Madis)
1941: 1313301 (CFM), 1191307 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,287,648 (actual Madis)
1942: 1343183 (CFM), 1221289 (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,317,830 (actual Madis)
1943: 1343190* (CFM), 1267741* (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,348,192 (actual Madis)
1944: 1343196 (CFM), 1314193* (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,378,554 (actual Madis)
1945: 1352066 (CFM), 1360645* (attributed to Madis, really "Others") 1,408,916 (actual Madis)

*Some serial numbers produced during and after World War II were not recorded. These serial number figures assume an equal number produced each year of these gaps in the record.
Also, the numbers given by Kennedy, attributed to Madis, for 1951 - 1962 are those given by "Others," not Madis.
Click to expand...

Personally from every rifle I have had lettered, the CFM numbers properly reflect what is on the letters.
 
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