Any Browning Citori experts in here? **new pictures in thread starter**

.22LRGUY

.22LRGUY

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Hey guys~don't want to duplicate a thread I have in the Hunting/sporting shotgun forum, but I have a 1979, 20ga Citori with a lower barrel/firing pin problem. Replacement pin is different than the old pin, but apparently the correct part. (?) Lots of online digging (and 1 email from WGP where I got it) suggests that new pins sometimes have to be made to fit. Could this be right?

The gun's action is clean, the bored area the pin travels in is totally clean, I've even tried the new spring with the old pin. Inconsistent results/ignition as before. Any/all help is appreciated.

thanks!
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***EDIT~she works!***

Hey guys~hopefully it's "case closed" on this...but I brought the Citori out for test shoot in today's RIDICULOUS southern Ontario, Sept.23 heat. MAN am I looking forward to cooler temps~31C WITHOUT the humidity factored in. Just NASTY. Anyhow, the gun performed PERFECTLY. Every round went off as it should, ejected happily. VERY satisfying!! Everybody likes photos and now that she's working right...I'd like to introduce you to her! :)

SmKqWjC.jpg


Shells prior to ignition...

OrNAAlx.jpg


Shells after! (every single time)

ekYN4ky.jpg
 
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Factory ammo? Or poor quality reloads?

Lower O/U pins always have a weaker strike due to the design. Reloads with a depressed primer always will be a problem. Pin needs to be made so it gives maximum protrusion when hit...
 
A 1979 citori would be a type 2 citori . are the pins that WGP supplied you with for a type 2 or type 3 .type 3 being the current type of citori .
 
rembolt said:
A 1979 citori would be a type 2 citori . are the pins that WGP supplied you with for a type 2 or type 3 .type 3 being the current type of citori .
Click to expand...

Hey Rembolt~good question...I'm just learning about this stuff to be totally honest. The firing pin/spring at the top of this photo is the original LOWER pin/spring. The firing pin/spring at the bottom of this photo is the NEW pin/spring WGP sent. WGP basically told me not all firing pins are "plug and play"....suggesting some work may be req. to make them fit.

Re: the "Wolff" extra power spring for the lower barrel~where would I find one of those?

aCJIc6G.jpg
 
.22LRGUY said:
Hey Rembolt~good question...I'm just learning about this stuff to be totally honest. The firing pin/spring at the top of this photo is the original LOWER pin/spring. The firing pin/spring at the bottom of this photo is the NEW pin/spring WGP sent. WGP basically told me not all firing pins are "plug and play"....suggesting some work may be req. to make them fit.

Re: the "Wolff" extra power spring for the lower barrel~where would I find one of those?

aCJIc6G.jpg
Click to expand...

The shoulder at the front of the bottom pin may be stopping the forward movement of the firing pin.

You need to examine how much protrusion there is when the hammer holds the firing pin in a fired position. I have had to make alteration to firing pins so they have the most protrusion possible when fired yet do not stick out and interfere with opening the action. This usually means cutting shoulder in a lathe and sometime welding buildup on the back of the pin and sometimes altering the recess for the retaining pin.

You are going to have to alter the bottom pin or have an experienced smith do it.

I doubt you need a heavier hammer spring.
 
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guntech said:
The shoulder at the front of the bottom pin may be stopping the forward movement of the firing pin.

You need to examine how much protrusion there is when the hammer holds the firing pin in a fired position. I have had to make alteration to firing pins so they have the most protrusion possible when fired yet do not stick out and interfere with opening the action. This usually means cutting shoulder in a lathe and sometime welding buildup on the back of the pin and sometimes altering the recess for the retaining pin.

You are going to have to alter the bottom pin or have an experienced smith do it.

I doubt you need a heavier hammer spring.
Click to expand...

^thanks for the input~this is sort of what I'm thinking. My plan was to alter the original pin first, but taking a little off the shoulder might make little difference if there isn't enough on the heavier end to really drive it home anyway when the hammer strikes it. I think it's the extra length of the new pin that might make it the better candidate. Hmm..

Being hardened steel, the options are limited for me working on them. The plan is (for better or for worse) to put the new pin in the chuck of my cordless drill, and using a fine grinding wheel on my Dremel, VERY gradually start removing material while making sure nothing gets hot compromising the temper. Then fine sandpaper and 3M Scotchbrite pads to polish. If I can closely get the dimension from the butt end to the shoulder the same, the newer pin will protrude MORE by the difference in their lengths. For a $20 pin, I'll chance it vs. the wait/expense of a gunsmith. It may come to that though.

btw~I did try the old pin with the new spring just because...but my understanding is that the spring's purpose is to push the pin AWAY from protruding during action opening/closing to prevent damage. Would make (and didn't make) any difference in function/ignition.
 
^ guntech's rates are very reasonable and his turn around for me was extremely fast. If you can't figure it out yourself, I would recommend letting Dennis have a look.
 
Zedbra said:
^ guntech's rates are very reasonable and his turn around for me was extremely fast. If you can't figure it out yourself, I would recommend letting Dennis have a look.
Click to expand...

It may come to that, thanks for the suggestion! btw, it's not the expense of a gunsmith that's deterring me, rather, having this drag-on a couple more weeks. If I mess this up in anyway, I'll involve a gunsmith for sure.
 
Do you have a digital caliper? Any measuring tools beyond rulers?

Because this is the kind of situation that makes having a decent drawing or sketch of the two parts, along with some reasonably accurate dimensions, pretty handy.

Having one of those 200 or so drill bit sets is a cheap way to get a bunch of varied size pins to feel for size of holes with. You go through them and find the biggest one that fits, and it gives you a pretty close idea of the hole size.

That top pin looks like a home built job. Or at least, it has been worked upon some.

I would start by trying the tip of the new pin, in the firing pin hole, from the breech face side. If it is too fat to fit, then anything else you do right away won't help.

If that fits the hole smoothly, try the pin in position without any springs. It should protrude (and this is off the top of my head here, not gospel) a bit more than enough to make a half round dome. Again with the being able to measure, eh?
Compare the pin protrusion with the one that works.
If that works out, try it for fit with the return springs, both new and old. If the new one stops the pin from going all the way forward, it may be off size, or it may be spring bound, which is when the coils are pressed together until it is a solid part, blocking movement.

With the pin protrusion correct, now you know the relationship between the shoulder and the pin tip. Now you set both those back the same amount to set up the back end of the pin's relationship with the hammer.
All while not losing the retainer slot in the side of the pin's ability to allow the pin to travel fore and aft.

The fast easy thing to do is to copy the one that came out. Except the one that came out, did so for a reason, else it would not have been disturbed, yeah? No point in copying the problems of the worn part.
This is why they say "some fitting required".

In a general sense, while a lathe would make the job MUCH easier, I do not see any reason that pin could not be built on a drill press or even in a drill strapped to a bench, with a couple files. But it would be a wee bit of craftsmanship to have it come out looking like it wasn't cobbled up. A hand held graver (cutting tool) in a small lathe like a Sherline or Taig would work a treat.

To my eye, the pin diameter on the new part looks larger in the picture than the diameter of the old part. Again, measuring tells.

Oh yeah. Cardinal rule! Make the part fit the work, don't make the work fit the part!

Really great picture BTW. Really helps show the two parts.

Cheers
Trev
 
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trevj said:
Do you have a digital caliper? Any measuring tools beyond rulers?

Because this is the kind of situation that makes having a decent drawing or sketch of the two parts, along with some reasonably accurate dimensions, pretty handy.

Having one of those 200 or so drill bit sets is a cheap way to get a bunch of varied size pins to feel for size of holes with. You go through them and find the biggest one that fits, and it gives you a pretty close idea of the hole size.

That top pin looks like a home built job. Or at least, it has been worked upon some.

I would start by trying the tip of the new pin, in the firing pin hole, from the breech face side. If it is too fat to fit, then anything else you do right away won't help.

If that fits the hole smoothly, try the pin in position without any springs. It should protrude (and this is off the top of my head here, not gospel) a bit more than enough to make a half round dome. Again with the being able to measure, eh?
Compare the pin protrusion with the one that works.
If that works out, try it for fit with the return springs, both new and old. If the new one stops the pin from going all the way forward, it may be off size, or it may be spring bound, which is when the coils are pressed together until it is a solid part, blocking movement.

With the pin protrusion correct, now you know the relationship between the shoulder and the pin tip. Now you set both those back the same amount to set up the back end of the pin's relationship with the hammer.
All while not losing the retainer slot in the side of the pin's ability to allow the pin to travel fore and aft.

The fast easy thing to do is to copy the one that came out. Except the one that came out, did so for a reason, else it would not have been disturbed, yeah? No point in copying the problems of the worn part.
This is why they say "some fitting required".

In a general sense, while a lathe would make the job MUCH easier, I do not see any reason that pin could not be built on a drill press or even in a drill strapped to a bench, with a couple files. But it would be a wee bit of craftsmanship to have it come out looking like it wasn't cobbled up. A hand held graver (cutting tool) in a small lathe like a Sherline or Taig would work a treat.

To my eye, the pin diameter on the new part looks larger in the picture than the diameter of the old part. Again, measuring tells.

Oh yeah. Cardinal rule! Make the part fit the work, don't make the work fit the part!

Really great picture BTW. Really helps show the two parts.

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

Hey Trev~thanks for the insight, and for taking the time to post such a detailed response. Very much appreciated. Something you said reminded me of a detail about this gun's original owner I'd forgotten~he owned a machine shop and if memory serves, they made custom fasteners among other things. A pretty resourceful guy by all accounts, I never had the pleasure of meeting him. (my late friend's dad) I mention all of that because I had simply assumed I was the first guy to open this gun up BUT...was puzzled as to why all 4 wood screws that have to be removed to disassemble the gun were stripped. Firing pins are the most likely reason to have to get in there...so I suppose there is every chance it is homemade. Interesting. In terms of fit~both pins in that photo ARE lower pins of course, the worn/old/problem one drops in...the new one is a very positive fit, almost too tight. I do own dial calipers (I hand load, but also program a large CNC router as part of my work) but will confirm the difference in diameter between old/new. You may have picked-up a dimension difference of a few thou looking at a photo on a web forum~kudos! :) They have to be super-close in size though.

I will try everything you suggested and as mentioned early-on, I am feeling a bit stuck knowing I have a new pin that won't seat fully, and nothing but a non-functioning original pin for reference. lol Whatever the case, the new pin FULLY inserted with the either spring fully compressed~there is no firing pin protruding from firing pin hole from the breech side. In fact, it's at least 1/16" back FROM the breech face. When you look through the retaining pin hole, you can see that the notch in the firing pin is partially blocking. In other words, everything points to that shoulder on the new pin needing to look way more like the original=set-back. I did inspect the depth of the dent in the primer on the spent (upper barrel) shells and no question, it's deeper than that lower pin protrudes.

Some addition photos of the receiver from my other, non-related thread. :)

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-2-I-have-pins-bottom-one-doesn-t-fit**/page3
 
Welcome.

If you look at the process of making a new firing pin from scratch, and the steps you will have to take to get the dimensions you need in order to work out what to make, it amounts to pretty much the same processes. In this case, you are starting from a piece that is already mostly made. It is up to the guy that fits it, to make it the rest of the way.

None of the steps involved, are complicated, it's just that there can sometimes be a lot of uncomplicated steps strung together, and some need to be done in a pretty specific order if you expect to be able to do the next ones. That is a general statement, not a specific one, BTW. It is also the main part of the 'knowledge' that I tried to spoon feed or otherwise pound in to an awful pile of apprentice tradesmen and women when I was in the Forces. Some 'got' it sooner than others. It sure was fun to watch the light come on when they did!

A blessing in this case, is that none of the parts seem to have any really odd angles, or offsets to deal with.

Now, you say that the springs were tried, and neither allowed the pin fully forward. Which leads to why I suggest that the pin be tried without the springs, it sorts out the cause pretty quickly, if the pin will reach without the spring, but not with, it points at a different dimension to be mucked about with for change.

Anyways, be methodical, think it through, and it all will be a bunch clearer once you look at the whole system and understand how it works.

My suspicion would be that the designers expected the pin to strike against the back of the breech face before it struck against the side of the retainer pin slot in the firing pin, so watch that dimension too.

Much can be learned by scribbling a little Sharpie marker ink over the contact surfaces and dry fitting the pieces together to see what wears off from contact.

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
Welcome.

If you look at the process of making a new firing pin from scratch, and the steps you will have to take to get the dimensions you need in order to work out what to make, it amounts to pretty much the same processes. In this case, you are starting from a piece that is already mostly made. It is up to the guy that fits it, to make it the rest of the way.

None of the steps involved, are complicated, it's just that there can sometimes be a lot of uncomplicated steps strung together, and some need to be done in a pretty specific order if you expect to be able to do the next ones. That is a general statement, not a specific one, BTW. It is also the main part of the 'knowledge' that I tried to spoon feed or otherwise pound in to an awful pile of apprentice tradesmen and women when I was in the Forces. Some 'got' it sooner than others. It sure was fun to watch the light come on when they did!

A blessing in this case, is that none of the parts seem to have any really odd angles, or offsets to deal with.

Now, you say that the springs were tried, and neither allowed the pin fully forward. Which leads to why I suggest that the pin be tried without the springs, it sorts out the cause pretty quickly, if the pin will reach without the spring, but not with, it points at a different dimension to be mucked about with for change.

Anyways, be methodical, think it through, and it all will be a bunch clearer once you look at the whole system and understand how it works.

My suspicion would be that the designers expected the pin to strike against the back of the breech face before it struck against the side of the retainer pin slot in the firing pin, so watch that dimension too.

Much can be learned by scribbling a little Sharpie marker ink over the contact surfaces and dry fitting the pieces together to see what wears off from contact.

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

More good wisdom Trev, thanks again. I will post any additional questions/relevant photos once I start into this. I only wish the receiver wasn't so compact. I mean..I like it being that way when I shoot it, but working on it with sausage-sized-fingers=not so much fun. On a side note, I hadn't realized (until I first opened it) that the firing pins travel (and subsequently strike the primers) at a slight angle.
 
.22LRGUY said:
Hey Rembolt~good question...I'm just learning about this stuff to be totally honest. The firing pin/spring at the top of this photo is the original LOWER pin/spring. The firing pin/spring at the bottom of this photo is the NEW pin/spring WGP sent. WGP basically told me not all firing pins are "plug and play"....suggesting some work may be req. to make them fit.

Re: the "Wolff" extra power spring for the lower barrel~where would I find one of those?

aCJIc6G.jpg
Click to expand...

Following this thread with interest . Looking at the new 20ga pins I have for a type 3 .it lòoks very much like the bottom pin in the photo . Looks me you need to get to know a good gunsmith or a machineist . If you attempt it your self be sure not to heat the pin up while working it .
 
trevj said:
Welcome.

If you look at the process of making a new firing pin from scratch, and the steps you will have to take to get the dimensions you need in order to work out what to make, it amounts to pretty much the same processes. In this case, you are starting from a piece that is already mostly made. It is up to the guy that fits it, to make it the rest of the way.

None of the steps involved, are complicated, it's just that there can sometimes be a lot of uncomplicated steps strung together, and some need to be done in a pretty specific order if you expect to be able to do the next ones. That is a general statement, not a specific one, BTW. It is also the main part of the 'knowledge' that I tried to spoon feed or otherwise pound in to an awful pile of apprentice tradesmen and women when I was in the Forces. Some 'got' it sooner than others. It sure was fun to watch the light come on when they did!

A blessing in this case, is that none of the parts seem to have any really odd angles, or offsets to deal with.

Now, you say that the springs were tried, and neither allowed the pin fully forward. Which leads to why I suggest that the pin be tried without the springs, it sorts out the cause pretty quickly, if the pin will reach without the spring, but not with, it points at a different dimension to be mucked about with for change.

Anyways, be methodical, think it through, and it all will be a bunch clearer once you look at the whole system and understand how it works.

My suspicion would be that the designers expected the pin to strike against the back of the breech face before it struck against the side of the retainer pin slot in the firing pin, so watch that dimension too.

Much can be learned by scribbling a little Sharpie marker ink over the contact surfaces and dry fitting the pieces together to see what wears off from contact.

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

OK guys~looks like I MIGHT have pulled it off. Quite literally every step of the way presented a hurdle, but I think I might have it. First-off, here is the new pin modified (top) compared to the original/non-functioning pin below it. I got the tapered section VERY close the original, stopping/checking every time I took more material off..with and without the spring and noticed AT the same length, it barely protruded at all. I took a little more off (arguably, too much) but with the pin in the chuck of a cordless drill and the other hand holding a Dremel with a tapered, stone bit...it's a little challenging to control. From the stone to a file, file to 22O grit paper, to 3M polishing pad. Repeat, repeat, repeat. End result is that I THINK it might be protruding a little too much, but we'll see. I've read that the top pin should protrude .49", the bottom .67" so maybe I'm fine. I will update this thread once I've tested the gun.

With the pin/spring seated, I thought "GOT IT! :)" and went to install the retaining pin~won't insert. The recess in the side of the pin simply wasn't deep enough and the retaining pin was jamming into the edge/side of the recess. I discovered this AFTER the photo below was taken, but I put the pin back in the chuck of the cordless drill (to use as a makeshift vise to hold it) and started to free-hand with the Dremel, and even things out with small needle files. A little stock removal at a time, nothing EVER getting hot, checking consistent removal with the callipers. Always within a few thou~not bad. About 2 hours in at this point, I cleaned the pin, put a very light coat of oil on it and the spring, inserted it, retaining pin found it's way, confirmed the pin could travel front-to-back. All good.

etuGGuB.jpg


I wiped everything down on the receiver, reassembled the gun, then grabbed a few spent shells. Chamber them in the lower barrel, pulled the trigger. Repeated with several spent shells and not once did the primer itself get pierced. (inspected under a loop, held-up to light, etc.) Some of the spent shells must have been shot with the upper barrel because the dent went from shallow to looking like the one below. Which I think might be very promising.

b31Tqpu.jpg


I'd like to thank those who have chimed-in, mostly for the confidence it gave me to take this on. Hopefully I'll have reliable ignition from that barrel going forward, and the grouse will pay dearly for it! :) I will update once I've had it out for a test shoot.

Thanks again.
 
That looks like a good strike . Hopefully is solves the problem . Keep an eye on possible percing with live ammo . Have a great hunting season .
 
So, do you know anyone with a 20 gauge Browning Citori O/U for sale?
Would prefer one with new firing pins myself.

It does appear your onto something with the project and do feel your going to enjoy this Grouse Season and that the Browning will treat you well.

Thanks for sharing and documenting the process for the next guy.

Rob
 
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