Any Consensus On Plastic Mags?

[TW25B]

By "Murica" I meant the AR15 design. So once decoded: AR15. Because anything else is questionable....or a pos.

Yup, sounds like your posts for sure.

Can you name another make/model that we as Canadians are legal to own that is as modular and as proven as the AR15?? The German army is dumping their G36 rifles to adopt an AR variant, as are the Kiwi's and most SF units. I don't see anyone outside China running a T97 and apparently the Israeli SF are going back to AR rifles from the Tavor.

I like the AR, it fits the bill and is very adaptable with a 50 plus year service record. Every AR I have ever owned has worked without fail right from the box and that includes with Pmags as well as USGI aluminums. Did you want me to apologize for demanding equipment that works, or apologize because it does??

TW25B

 

[J996]

Can you name another make/model that we as Canadians are legal to own that is as modular and as proven as the AR15?? The German army is dumping their G36 rifles to adopt an AR variant, as are the Kiwi's and most SF units. I don't see anyone outside China running a T97 and apparently the Israeli SF are going back to AR rifles from the Tavor.

I like the AR, it fits the bill and is very adaptable with a 50 plus year service record. Every AR I have ever owned has worked without fail right from the box and that includes with Pmags as well as USGI aluminums. Did you want me to apologize for demanding equipment that works, or apologize because it does??

TW25B

It's more about how you come across on this forum. You talk down to people, call things you don't like garbage or POS and generally come off as very opinionated.

I was using the AR15 platform when we were still wearing OD green and it is a good weapon, but that does not mean anything else is unworkable and inferior. Something different like the G36 or even the Tavor "works" just fine when you don't have your head up your butt and refuse to try anything but an AR15 variant.

 

[Gunnerlove]

Any Consensus On Plastic Mags?

No.

That said I like how tight my Gen 2 and 3 pmags fit AR magwells, as I monopod off the mag and lock it in front of my knee when sjooting from the kneeling.
I have it under good authority that the only polymer mag that will pass the Canadian Army cold weather testing is the Lancer L5.

 

[greentips]

Any Consensus On Plastic Mags?

No.

That said I like how tight my Gen 2 and 3 pmags fit AR magwells, as I monopod off the mag and lock it in front of my knee when sjooting from the kneeling.
I have it under good authority that the only polymer mag that will pass the Canadian Army cold weather testing is the Lancer L5.

Lancer mag appears to be made of polycarbonate, similar stuff that Swiss Arms mags and G36 mags are made off.

Pmag is made of some other polymers, maybe some form of Nylon similar to Zytel that is reinforced by fibre glass?

The Pmag stuff is pretty high density. Pmag Gen2 and Gen3 are actually heavier than GI mag and the Polycarbonate HK mag.

On the other hand, I don't plan on going anywhere when it is -30 outthere, so most people ( and militaries ) will be served well by Pmags.

 

[Porkchopsandwhich]

and apparently the Israeli SF are going back to AR rifles from the Tavor. TW25B

"As part of initial testing by Israel Defense Forces' infantry units, the TAR-21 was distributed to members of the training company of the Tzabar Battalion from the Givati Brigade who were drafted in August 2001. They received their rifles in November 2001 during basic training. Initial testing results were favorable – the TAR-21 was found to be significantly more accurate and reliable (as well as more comfortable) than the M4 carbine during extensive field testing."

"In November 2009, the IDF announced that the MTAR-21 (X-95) would become the standard infantry weapon of the IDF, with the addition of an integrated grenade-launcher"

"In December 2012, the IDF announced that they would begin equipping and training their new reserve forces with the TAR-21, starting in 2013, with the switch-over by 2018"

"In 2014 the IDF announced that in the future (from as early as the end of 2014) some infantry units could start to be issued some numbers of an improved MTAR-21, which will have a longer 38 cm barrel (instead of the original 33 cm barrel of the X95), a lighter trigger pull, and a number of other upgrades."

I don't think the IDF will be going back m16/m4 platform and when their stocks of m16/m4s and parts are gone they will be fazed out of service completely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21

 

[J996]

"As part of initial testing by Israel Defense Forces' infantry units, the TAR-21 was distributed to members of the training company of the Tzabar Battalion from the Givati Brigade who were drafted in August 2001. They received their rifles in November 2001 during basic training. Initial testing results were favorable – the TAR-21 was found to be significantly more accurate and reliable (as well as more comfortable) than the M4 carbine during extensive field testing."

"In November 2009, the IDF announced that the MTAR-21 (X-95) would become the standard infantry weapon of the IDF, with the addition of an integrated grenade-launcher"

"In December 2012, the IDF announced that they would begin equipping and training their new reserve forces with the TAR-21, starting in 2013, with the switch-over by 2018"

"In 2014 the IDF announced that in the future (from as early as the end of 2014) some infantry units could start to be issued some numbers of an improved MTAR-21, which will have a longer 38 cm barrel (instead of the original 33 cm barrel of the X95), a lighter trigger pull, and a number of other upgrades."

I don't think the IDF will be going back m16/m4 platform and when their stocks of m16/m4s and parts are gone they will be fazed out of service completely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21

For god's sake man, don't post things that question the M4's superiority. He will explode!!!

http://2.bp.########.com/-fNQYyMkzl08/U8F_GOdNnzI/AAAAAAAAB1A/OX6JvLhRO_U/s1600/Mind+Blown+_0d3ee962b5f9b9b3aa22b5a1695d6b34.jpg

For what it's worth (if I recall the details of a documentary on the IDF) with regards to the Tavor and them finding it more accurate, what they mean by that was they found it easier to put rounds on steel offhand with it. They are not talking about shooting groups.
As for reliability, they live in a desert with fine dust, it was designed with that environment in mind.

 

[Gunnerlove]

On the other hand, I don't plan on going anywhere when it is -30 outthere, so most people ( and militaries ) will be served well by Pmags.

I agree, and that's why I have a bunch of them.

 

[TW25B]

It's more about how you come across on this forum. You talk down to people, call things you don't like garbage or POS and generally come off as very opinionated.

I was using the AR15 platform when we were still wearing OD green and it is a good weapon, but that does not mean anything else is unworkable and inferior. Something different like the G36 or even the Tavor "works" just fine when you don't have your head up your butt and refuse to try anything but an AR15 variant.

I have opinions, and often times they are based on experience and other firm knowledge. The type 97 is junk, I call it as I see it. They handle like sh*t, the controls are poorly laid out and the inability to mount optics or any other accessory is frankly 40 years out of date. They don't group very well and have issues with magazine not working, receivers showing excessive wear with few rounds through them are indicators of poor quality, like all Norinco/Chinese firearms. Given the option, no one would willingly choose a Norc product over another better brand. The type 97 is so great that immediately after their introduction to Canada M14.ca was producing a replacement top with a pic rail so some sort of normal optics mounting could be achieved.

As for the G36, I've handled one and shot one, they're alright but are not overly modular and as of now not legal in Canada. The Tavor is grossly over priced, over hyped and also not very modular. It also suffers all the problems of a bullpup(search around the forum, I've mentioned and discussed them before). Slam firing due to a free floating bolt, magazine fitment issues and the gas in the face are all unacceptable issues. Throw in non ambi, non adjustable LOP and atrocious height over bore with any sighting system and the Tavor is a poor choice.

"As part of initial testing by Israel Defense Forces' infantry units, the TAR-21 was distributed to members of the training company of the Tzabar Battalion from the Givati Brigade who were drafted in August 2001. They received their rifles in November 2001 during basic training. Initial testing results were favorable – the TAR-21 was found to be significantly more accurate and reliable (as well as more comfortable) than the M4 carbine during extensive field testing."

"In November 2009, the IDF announced that the MTAR-21 (X-95) would become the standard infantry weapon of the IDF, with the addition of an integrated grenade-launcher"

"In December 2012, the IDF announced that they would begin equipping and training their new reserve forces with the TAR-21, starting in 2013, with the switch-over by 2018"

"In 2014 the IDF announced that in the future (from as early as the end of 2014) some infantry units could start to be issued some numbers of an improved MTAR-21, which will have a longer 38 cm barrel (instead of the original 33 cm barrel of the X95), a lighter trigger pull, and a number of other upgrades."

I don't think the IDF will be going back m16/m4 platform and when their stocks of m16/m4s and parts are gone they will be fazed out of service completely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21

Wikipedia is a peer edited sight, so the information is hardly absolute. It also states that "initial results were favorable" from a "drafted" unit. For shooting Palestinians across the street the rifle works, but the Israeli SF are sticking with AR platform rifles. Even the French have figured out that bullpup is a no go. Only took them 40 years but they've seen the light.

TW25B

 

[Still alive]

TW25B,
I've followed a lot of your posts and you've become active fairly recently. I agree with most of your choices in weapon systems including the AR platform...
But I just can't shake the feeling that your writing style is very familiar and similar to a banned member from Alta whose CGN handle also started with T and ended with DC.
The only thing that tells me you can't be the same person is you joined in 2006 and TDC was banned 14/15.

 

[Epoxy7]

Can you name another make/model that we as Canadians are legal to own that is as modular and as proven as the AR15?? The German army is dumping their G36 rifles to adopt an AR variant, as are the Kiwi's and most SF units. I don't see anyone outside China running a T97 and apparently the Israeli SF are going back to AR rifles from the Tavor.

I like the AR, it fits the bill and is very adaptable with a 50 plus year service record. Every AR I have ever owned has worked without fail right from the box and that includes with Pmags as well as USGI aluminums. Did you want me to apologize for demanding equipment that works, or apologize because it does??

TW25B

Most of us really like the AR. That's not in contention here. You're trying to spell it out to me, when I made it clear that I use different platforms was over the top. That and the carry on comment. I don't need or want your permission to do anything. Thank you. As mentioned, your condescending posts are what you should be apologizing for.

Ya, well the T97 is fun. It handles very well and is a good plinker. I consider it much like my CZ858 which is also fun but not perfect. I've shot my T97 a fair amount and the ergos are weird. But the firearm points well, the internals are pretty much AK inspired along with the only wear I've seen is the painted finish on some of the parts. I had a piece of bark mulch jammed up in the feed ramp and setting two got it working again. I'm sorry but it's reliable. More importantly it's fun.

The Tavor. It's pretty cool. It's gained a lot in popularity. Just look at sales in the US. Also other militaries have adopted them. No, it's not as modular as an AR. But it does have other advantages such as OAL by being a bullpup. Reliability is rock solid with them as well. Accuracy potential isn't as good of course, but it holds it's own against a military accurate AR style rifle.

Bottom line. I own a number of firearms. Yes the AR is one of my first choices. But I'm not stuck with one choice. I can own a bunch and I do. Guess what? I want my mags to work in all of them. No amount of academia on your account is going to change that requirement for me. Thanks. Oh and it looks like Greentips has created some doubt with regards to what you posted with the mag standards.

Lancer mag appears to be made of polycarbonate, similar stuff that Swiss Arms mags and G36 mags are made off.

Pmag is made of some other polymers, maybe some form of Nylon similar to Zytel that is reinforced by fibre glass?

The Pmag stuff is pretty high density. Pmag Gen2 and Gen3 are actually heavier than GI mag and the Polycarbonate HK mag.

On the other hand, I don't plan on going anywhere when it is -30 outthere, so most people ( and militaries ) will be served well by Pmags.

There are lots of places in this country where -30 is a regular winter, with sub -50 being a cold snap. Ask me how I know. No I didn't plan on it either. I've shot in -30 unfortunately. Not much fun but worth a try. If Pmags can't take that cold, then they are useless for military or police issue. Most likely why the RCMP went with Colt metal mags instead.

That being said, if pmags worked in all my firearms then yes I would likely have gone with them as my standard. They are cool. I just need functional more than cool.

 

[Phat Eagle]

TW25B,
I've followed a lot of your posts and you've become active fairly recently. I agree with most of your choices in weapon systems including the AR platform...
But I just can't shake the feeling that your writing style is very familiar and similar to a banned member from Alta whose CGN handle also started with T and ended with DC.
The only thing that tells me you can't be the same person is you joined in 2006 and TDC was banned 14/15.

 

[Epoxy7]

TW25B,
I've followed a lot of your posts and you've become active fairly recently. I agree with most of your choices in weapon systems including the AR platform...
But I just can't shake the feeling that your writing style is very familiar and similar to a banned member from Alta whose CGN handle also started with T and ended with DC.
The only thing that tells me you can't be the same person is you joined in 2006 and TDC was banned 14/15.

Was thinking exactly the same thing. Wasn't there a thread here recently with someone saying they were notified that there was an attempt to access/hack their account? Hmmmmmm. I wonder. Because yes these sudden active posts do smell of TDC.

 

[Porkchopsandwhich]

I have opinions, and often times they are based on experience and other firm knowledge. The type 97 is junk, I call it as I see it. They handle like sh*t, the controls are poorly laid out and the inability to mount optics or any other accessory is frankly 40 years out of date. They don't group very well and have issues with magazine not working, receivers showing excessive wear with few rounds through them are indicators of poor quality, like all Norinco/Chinese firearms. Given the option, no one would willingly choose a Norc product over another better brand. The type 97 is so great that immediately after their introduction to Canada M14.ca was producing a replacement top with a pic rail so some sort of normal optics mounting could be achieved.

As for the G36, I've handled one and shot one, they're alright but are not overly modular and as of now not legal in Canada. The Tavor is grossly over priced, over hyped and also not very modular. It also suffers all the problems of a bullpup(search around the forum, I've mentioned and discussed them before). Slam firing due to a free floating bolt, magazine fitment issues and the gas in the face are all unacceptable issues. Throw in non ambi, non adjustable LOP and atrocious height over bore with any sighting system and the Tavor is a poor choice.



Wikipedia is a peer edited sight, so the information is hardly absolute. It also states that "initial results were favorable" from a "drafted" unit. For shooting Palestinians across the street the rifle works, but the Israeli SF are sticking with AR platform rifles. Even the French have figured out that bullpup is a no go. Only took them 40 years but they've seen the light.

TW25B

No argument with the Type97 being junk and quality isn't there for the price and your above listed issues are all very true. For sub $600.00 the norc Ars are almost shoot and th

The G36 I've shot the full auto version and handled the civilian version (SL8) I liked the gun but price kept me out of that game. Stories of wandering zeros from melted plastic and the Germans talking about switching to the hk416 from the G36 seem to discount it as a viable platform. They have moved the SL8 to the prohibited category? news to me.

Tavor: Pricing I cant argue the pricing issue with the Tavor, there is the non restricted black rifle tax that needs to be paid.
"Modularity" Not everyone feels the need to play big boy lego or dress up Barbie with all their guns all the time. Tvpresspass has spoken on the topic of running all the latest Tavor gadgets and then returning the rifle pretty much to stock after.

"All the problems of a bullpup" O boy here we go, Im going to take a wild guess and say: mag changes, prone shooting and I don't like the way it feels cause I was trained or have only every used ###xx platform. Training issues and ingrained biases nothing more. tons of videos and information about this

"free floating bolt" I assume you mean firing pin? I can think of nearly dozen military rifles that have a free floating fire pin I guess that discounts what a large portion of what militaries around the world use for service rifles. also "The first civilian semi-automatic version of the Tavor exported to Canada had the same issue. Initial owners were shipped a retaining spring and current versions include this spring." A quick google search shows that the tavor firing pin has a return spring.

"Magazine fitment issues" Gen3 Pmags work and usgi style steel mags work(k products) most of the "mag well issues" seem to center around not dropping free of the mag well which isn't a primary concern.

"Gas in the face" In a thousand rounds I have not experienced this ive only heard about it on the internet also "This has been addressed by various non-factory solutions such as GWR FLEX which properly seal the port on the unused side.".

"Throw in non ambi" The gun is convertible to completely ambi unless you mean that the controls aren't ambi out the box.

"non adjustable LOP" This is an actually issue with all bulpups, currently only one aftermarket buttpad is available that I am aware of which slightly shortens the rifle. Ill say I'm 6' 220lbs and I do not fine the lop to be and issue, Ill concede I have not tried the Tavor with armour, LBE or thick clothing on.

"atrocious height over bore" first time Ive ever heard this complaint against the Tavor.. I guess but what about every gun that has a long stroke gas piston mounted above the barrel... like at least a dozen service rifles again have this issue I have not noticed it to be a concern with the shooting Ive done with the optics Ive mounted

Herpaderp Wikipedia is not argument, It is a peer edited web site that is heavily moderated. Is does require citations which requires you to actually read them.

Article speaking about initial evaluation
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/5/28/decidedly-different-the-iwi-tavor/

Article dated 2012 talking about issuing the micro Tavor to IDF special forces
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1125

please cite a source

And the French (Famas) might as well include the Aussies (AUG) also (Austrians) also (Kiwis) and British (SA-80) all 1960's technology implemented in the 70s and 80s. all out of date.

The Tavor is one of the newest rifles to be adopted by a military that has extensive urban fighting experience "For shooting Palestinians across the street" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Well for me, as an unbiased user with no dog in this fight - my PMags worked like a hot damn for simple range work. Winters get pretty tough for me sometimes, being cooped up in the house - and I have been known to hit the range on -30C days. All my other black guns worked in low temps and I know for a fact the HK mags for the SL8 will handle low temps with ease. It will be interesting to see how the Pmag holds up...

 

[Bolivar]

I don't recall ever saying such a stupid statement. The type 97 and all Norc products are unquestionably junk. For the plinker at the range they do their job, they make noise and spit brass. For competitors or MIL/LE users they're garbage.

I used to compete with a Norc AR with good success. Just sayin'.

 

[DT741]

Used the metal mags for work as well as Pmags... The metal ones never came back one patrol.

They have survived the canadian cold weather in any conditions as well as the heat from the desert. I thought about keeping them by pinning them to 5, but instead, they stay at work, unmolested.

Buy them with peace of mind, they work and are reliable as hell

 

[TW25B]

Was thinking exactly the same thing. Wasn't there a thread here recently with someone saying they were notified that there was an attempt to access/hack their account? Hmmmmmm. I wonder. Because yes these sudden active posts do smell of TDC.

TDC is or rather was a CGN friend of mine. We shoot together and share a lot of similar beliefs when it comes to guns and gear. If you're still curious about TDC he is doing just fine.

I used to compete with a Norc AR with good success. Just sayin'.

The Norc AR is probably their best product, and it still has issues and is far from milspec. Although I would recommend a Norc over an NEA any day of the week.

No argument with the Type97 being junk and quality isn't there for the price and your above listed issues are all very true. For sub $600.00 the norc Ars are almost shoot and th

I agree, the Norc AR is their best product. For a range plinker it's a cheap option.

The G36 I've shot the full auto version and handled the civilian version (SL8) I liked the gun but price kept me out of that game. Stories of wandering zeros from melted plastic and the Germans talking about switching to the hk416 from the G36 seem to discount it as a viable platform. They have moved the SL8 to the prohibited category? news to me.

I never said the SL8 was prohib, but it is nowhere near the same rifle as a G36. To convert it to a wannabe G36 takes a lot of money and it weighs a ton.

Tavor: Pricing I cant argue the pricing issue with the Tavor, there is the non restricted black rifle tax that needs to be paid.
"Modularity" Not everyone feels the need to play big boy lego or dress up Barbie with all their guns all the time. Tvpresspass has spoken on the topic of running all the latest Tavor gadgets and then returning the rifle pretty much to stock after.

I would call it gouging not a tax. The rifle isn't worth more than $1500 at best. I also agree that bolting a lot of unnecessary junk to a rifle is not for everyone, but a light and sling are paramount if you are after a serious carbine for serious work. The ability to mount a laser designator, buis, NOD, sling and light is hard to do with the very limited "rail estate" offered by a bullpup design. From the MIL point of view that just doesn't work.

"All the problems of a bullpup" O boy here we go, Im going to take a wild guess and say: mag changes, prone shooting and I don't like the way it feels cause I was trained or have only every used ###xx platform. Training issues and ingrained biases nothing more. tons of videos and information about this

The problems of the bullpup are as follows. Non ambi, fixed LOP, extremely high bore offset, difficult reloads, sh*t trigger, No space for accessories(as mentioned above), issues with magazine compatibility. Some of these issues can be rectified for the most part with training. The non ambi, fixed LOP and high bore offset cannot. Those are serious negatives that are non issues with other conventional designs. The only two benefits of a bullpup are shorter OAL and better balance. The OAL issue is also a training issue, which can also be rectified with a shorter barrel/upper. the balance issue is related to the amount of junk hanging off a rifle. The bullpup is better balanced, but a properly setup AR balances nicely as well. The benefits don't outweigh the disadvantages. For us civvie users the OAL is of near zero benefit which means the better balance is the only positive attribute. As I mentioned, a properly setup AR will balance nicely as well, so the bullpup is now offering one marginal advantage over a conventional design for the civvie user. In this country the big selling feature is the non restricted status, and that is not worth the price tag.

"free floating bolt" I assume you mean firing pin? I can think of nearly dozen military rifles that have a free floating fire pin I guess that discounts what a large portion of what militaries around the world use for service rifles. also "The first civilian semi-automatic version of the Tavor exported to Canada had the same issue. Initial owners were shipped a retaining spring and current versions include this spring." A quick google search shows that the tavor firing pin has a return spring.

I know what the issue was and how it was fixed. My complaint is that for such a "revolutionary" design they failed to design the firing system properly. What's worse is they proclaimed the slam fires were due to soft primers in ammo but then sent firing pin return springs and altered the design. Rather than admit they f**ked up they fabricate some BS story then offer a remedy.

"Magazine fitment issues" Gen3 Pmags work and usgi style steel mags work(k products) most of the "mag well issues" seem to center around not dropping free of the mag well which isn't a primary concern.

Do Gen 1 and 2 Pmags work? What about Lancer or Troy battle mags?

"Gas in the face" In a thousand rounds I have not experienced this ive only heard about it on the internet also "This has been addressed by various non-factory solutions such as GWR FLEX which properly seal the port on the unused side.".

I've experienced it on all Tavors I've shot. A non factory fix means the design is flawed. If extensive testing and field trials were done then this issue should have been observed and rectified.

"Throw in non ambi" The gun is convertible to completely ambi unless you mean that the controls aren't ambi out the box.

You cannot transition from right to left shoulder and shoot without dramatically altering your head position, the rifle position(canted) or eat brass. That is a non ambi gun. If a left and right handed shooter cannot pickup and use the same rifle without the addition of parts, it's a non ambi gun.

"non adjustable LOP" This is an actually issue with all bulpups, currently only one aftermarket buttpad is available that I am aware of which slightly shortens the rifle. Ill say I'm 6' 220lbs and I do not fine the lop to be and issue, Ill concede I have not tried the Tavor with armour, LBE or thick clothing on.

Right.. And what about the 5 foot tall shooter, or the same shooter with armour/LBE and cold weather clothing?

"atrocious height over bore" first time Ive ever heard this complaint against the Tavor.. I guess but what about every gun that has a long stroke gas piston mounted above the barrel... like at least a dozen service rifles again have this issue I have not noticed it to be a concern with the shooting Ive done with the optics Ive mounted

height over bore is an issue. Measure your Tavor from optical centre to bore line, I believe it's 4.75" for the irons let alone an optic. That is twice the offset of an AR or most other conventional designs.

Herpaderp Wikipedia is not argument, It is a peer edited web site that is heavily moderated. Is does require citations which requires you to actually read them.

Article speaking about initial evaluation
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/5/28/decidedly-different-the-iwi-tavor/

Article dated 2012 talking about issuing the micro Tavor to IDF special forces
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1125

please cite a source

And the French (Famas) might as well include the Aussies (AUG) also (Austrians) also (Kiwis) and British (SA-80) all 1960's technology implemented in the 70s and 80s. all out of date.

You're right, they are all out of date. The AUG being the oldest design still offers the best set of features for a bullpup. The Tavor was built 40 years later and didn't address any of the common issues with a bullpup.

The Tavor is one of the newest rifles to be adopted by a military that has extensive urban fighting experience "For shooting Palestinians across the street" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

In the bold..

Used the metal mags for work as well as Pmags... The metal ones never came back one patrol.

They have survived the canadian cold weather in any conditions as well as the heat from the desert. I thought about keeping them by pinning them to 5, but instead, they stay at work, unmolested.

Buy them with peace of mind, they work and are reliable as hell

Magpul did testing in Alaska, which gets as cold or colder than places in this country, Pmags work just fine in the cold.

TW25B

 

[Epoxy7]

TDC is or rather was a CGN friend of mine. We shoot together and share a lot of similar beliefs when it comes to guns and gear. If you're still curious about TDC he is doing just fine.

No, I'm not curious. He was a poser trying to tell people who do this for a living how he learned it in some weekend course. He should stick to airsoft. Sure you don't just let him sign on your account? Because there are "friends" and then there is almost the exact same post style.

The Norc AR is probably their best product, and it still has issues and is far from milspec. Although I would recommend a Norc over an NEA any day of the week.

I've had no issues with my T97. The Norc AR15 I shot, once free floated and the trigger worked on actually shot 1 moa with 55 pmc bronze. It may not be milspec, it is definitely ugly but damn they work well and the price point is tuff to argue. I agree with you completely about the Norc over the NEA.

Magpul did testing in Alaska, which gets as cold or colder than places in this country, Pmags work just fine in the cold.

TW25B

Kind of weird that the RCMP go with C8IUR, Aimpoint Comp m4, LMT SOPMOD stock, ergo grip, Gieselle match trigger etc.. but stick with the metal mags. They didn't spare any expenses and if the pmag was as great as it's made to be, they would have gone that route too. Whoever put those rifles together knew what they were doing, and it definitely wasn't lowest bid or the budget choice. I wonder what issues they found?

On a side note, the US military including the Marines banned pmag use. Apparently they found compatibility issues when using their M4/M16 and the SAW as well as HK416. The complaint was jams would often be caused when using other nato weapons. In a firefight a pmag could be passed along and cause a jam. I guess it would be fine as long as you make sure you have the correct gen2 or gen3 mag along with Emags to ensure that they will work. There are also contradictory reports that pmags are ok again. So I guess there is also no consensus even with the US military.

 

[r34skyline]

I've had no issues with my T97. The Norc AR15 I shot, once free floated and the trigger worked on actually shot 1 moa with 55 pmc bronze. It may not be milspec, it is definitely ugly but damn they work well and the price point is tuff to argue. I agree with you completely about the Norc over the NEA.


Kind of weird that the RCMP go with C8IUR, Aimpoint Comp m4, LMT SOPMOD stock, ergo grip, Gieselle match trigger etc.. but stick with the metal mags. They didn't spare any expenses and if the pmag was as great as it's made to be, they would have gone that route too. Whoever put those rifles together knew what they were doing, and it definitely wasn't lowest bid or the budget choice. I wonder what issues they found?

Colt made gi mags vs private company, gee I wonder who had more push during the contract acquisition. Stock and grip they can do without but mags are a money maker. GI mags work well, I am plenty happy with my Hartford mags and my D&H mags, but my PMAGs have worked just as well so far, this winter I find out how well they all work.

As for the norc issue it has been established by now it's a dice roll, some work, some don't. For some the $600 for the ar or the $1000 T97 is worth the gamble, most people don't shoot enough to actually have problems with it. Usually most people that run their guns hard have discovered they fall short of their milspec rivals.

 

[TW25B]

No, I'm not curious. He was a poser trying to tell people who do this for a living how he learned it in some weekend course. He should stick to airsoft. Sure you don't just let him sign on your account? Because there are "friends" and then there is almost the exact same post style.



I've had no issues with my T97. The Norc AR15 I shot, once free floated and the trigger worked on actually shot 1 moa with 55 pmc bronze. It may not be milspec, it is definitely ugly but damn they work well and the price point is tuff to argue. I agree with you completely about the Norc over the NEA.




Kind of weird that the RCMP go with C8IUR, Aimpoint Comp m4, LMT SOPMOD stock, ergo grip, Gieselle match trigger etc.. but stick with the metal mags. They didn't spare any expenses and if the pmag was as great as it's made to be, they would have gone that route too. Whoever put those rifles together knew what they were doing, and it definitely wasn't lowest bid or the budget choice. I wonder what issues they found?

On a side note, the US military including the Marines banned pmag use. Apparently they found compatibility issues when using their M4/M16 and the SAW as well as HK416. The complaint was jams would often be caused when using other nato weapons. In a firefight a pmag could be passed along and cause a jam. I guess it would be fine as long as you make sure you have the correct gen2 or gen3 mag along with Emags to ensure that they will work. There are also contradictory reports that pmags are ok again. So I guess there is also no consensus even with the US military.

What can I say, great minds or "posers" think alike. TDC definitely didn't try to make any friends on the forum that's for sure.

I think Skyline nailed it, the Norc AR is a gamble and for some it works out fine. The key seems to be leaving them alone and shooting them in stock configuration. It seems to be when people try to add a free float rail that it all goes sideways. Personally I wouldn't waste the money on a gamble of a Norc AR and save up some more money and buy a quality brand. The other problem with "budget" rifles is that people scrape together the coin to get one but then have little to no money for quality mags, optics or ammo. All of which are needed to make the whole thing work. Shooting and firearms are not cheap and some stuff is financially off limits for people.

The RCMP are free to select whatever they wish. They also use S&W 5946 pistols which are very outdated and sport very heavy DAO triggers. At one time the RCMP selected mini 14's as a patrol rifle and some still use Remington 700's. I would imagine the adoption of USGI magazines was more financial than performance based. I bet there are mountains of USGI mags available from vendors and manufacturers at near zero cost. I heard a rumour from a quite reputable source that the Calgary Police service was issuing 20 round AR mags when they first got patrol carbines because they scored a sweet sweet deal on a boat load of them when they bought their rifles. True or not, the logic is there. I wouldn't be surprised if some in the decision making process relied on their past knowledge/experience of USGI mags as opposed to current hard data. The rifle the optic the stock etc etc are one time fixed purchases. Magazines are a consumable item and need to be constantly purchased and replaced.

The US MIL banning Pmags as you posted had nothing to do with the mags not functioning, it was/is an issue with sharing resources with non US forces. Using any type of mag in a SAW is a pretty desperate situation. They don't run very well with USGI mags either.

The Pmag can be thrown around and driven over without failing, a USGI cannot. I don't think it's a tough decision between the two.

TW25B