Any reason not to free float a barrel?
- Thread starter Fox
- Start date
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
This. Fiddle around IF you have a problem, don't go looking for one....
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Because an inch-and-a-half rifle won't kill game?
I much prefer a good shooting rifle with a free floated barrel and a correctly bedded action over the same rifle with a bedded barrel... because there are fewer chances of the point of aim changing while shooting or between hunts.
Many may not realize it but point of aim and accuracy can be affected by where you hold the fore stock and on what and where you rest it. A problem greatly reduced by a free floating barrel.
The most stable stock of course is a quality synthetic stock with a rigid fore stock and close to that would be the modern laminated wood stock.
Does any of this matter to one who is happy with 1 and 1/2 or 2 inch groups and cleans and sights his rifle in every 10 years whether it needs it or not... not really.
Many may not realize it but point of aim and accuracy can be affected by where you hold the fore stock and on what and where you rest it. A problem greatly reduced by a free floating barrel.
The most stable stock of course is a quality synthetic stock with a rigid fore stock and close to that would be the modern laminated wood stock.
Does any of this matter to one who is happy with 1 and 1/2 or 2 inch groups and cleans and sights his rifle in every 10 years whether it needs it or not... not really.
sir_springer
Regular
- Location
- East Kootenays
My thinking has always been, when in doubt free float the barrel.
With wood stocks, a rifle that shoots good at the range under ideal conditions can sometimes turn into a scatter gun in wet or humid climate, such is the nature of wood to absorb moisture and become distorted, in turn putting additional pressure on the barrel in one direction or another.
Some manufacturers, Remington and Vanguards come to mind, build in a pressure point at the end of the forearm. This can be easily eliminated with a bit of careful sanding.
Forbes beds the entire action and barrel, and has a reputation for remarkable accuracy...but this involves well crafted,rigid and exceedingly stable synthetic stocks that do not respond to climatic conditions of any kind.
My current go-to rifle, a Vanguard .300 WM, came with a wood stock. On a good day it would group about 3" at 100 yds. I ditched the stock for quality, free floating, Pacific Research synthetic, and my first sight in group measured 5/8".
My hunting partner, once upon a time, carried a Parker Hale with a wood stock. You didn't know from one day to the next where it might put a bullet. I free floated it, and it became a reliable, decently grouping hunting rifle.
Rifles today, even the cheapest ones, largely tend to be more consistently accurate than those of twenty years ago. This is due to better manufacturing processes, primarily involving CNC machining, that produce tighter tolerances. But also, most rifles are designed with free floating barrels, which very likely factors into the equation...not to mention that this also reduces manufacturing costs in a very competitive market. The reality of better ammunition quality is a contributor, too.
That said, in some instances, the exception rather than the rule IMHO, a pressure point at the end of the forearm can control barrel vibration and improve accuracy. The trick is to this is, how much pressure? Theoretically, something not exceeding ten pounds, the amount of energy on a scale it takes to separate the forearm from the barrel. But again, wood mixed with damp climate can toss all this out the window in a hurry! This may work reliably with a well made, and thus very stable synthetic stock, but I personally wouldn't put much faith in it otherwise.
As for .22 caliber rifles, I don't think a lot of this applies. 40 grains of lead ahead of about 7 grains of powder doesn't produce a lot of barrel vibration in the first place. Even so, again wood and water don't mix well, and it could be a problem...albeit most of us don't regularly push a .22 for accuracy out beyond 50 to 75 yards anyway.
I make sure all my center fire rifles are free floated as a matter of principle, and to date the results have proven this to be the best course.
FWIW.
With wood stocks, a rifle that shoots good at the range under ideal conditions can sometimes turn into a scatter gun in wet or humid climate, such is the nature of wood to absorb moisture and become distorted, in turn putting additional pressure on the barrel in one direction or another.
Some manufacturers, Remington and Vanguards come to mind, build in a pressure point at the end of the forearm. This can be easily eliminated with a bit of careful sanding.
Forbes beds the entire action and barrel, and has a reputation for remarkable accuracy...but this involves well crafted,rigid and exceedingly stable synthetic stocks that do not respond to climatic conditions of any kind.
My current go-to rifle, a Vanguard .300 WM, came with a wood stock. On a good day it would group about 3" at 100 yds. I ditched the stock for quality, free floating, Pacific Research synthetic, and my first sight in group measured 5/8".
My hunting partner, once upon a time, carried a Parker Hale with a wood stock. You didn't know from one day to the next where it might put a bullet. I free floated it, and it became a reliable, decently grouping hunting rifle.
Rifles today, even the cheapest ones, largely tend to be more consistently accurate than those of twenty years ago. This is due to better manufacturing processes, primarily involving CNC machining, that produce tighter tolerances. But also, most rifles are designed with free floating barrels, which very likely factors into the equation...not to mention that this also reduces manufacturing costs in a very competitive market. The reality of better ammunition quality is a contributor, too.
That said, in some instances, the exception rather than the rule IMHO, a pressure point at the end of the forearm can control barrel vibration and improve accuracy. The trick is to this is, how much pressure? Theoretically, something not exceeding ten pounds, the amount of energy on a scale it takes to separate the forearm from the barrel. But again, wood mixed with damp climate can toss all this out the window in a hurry! This may work reliably with a well made, and thus very stable synthetic stock, but I personally wouldn't put much faith in it otherwise.
As for .22 caliber rifles, I don't think a lot of this applies. 40 grains of lead ahead of about 7 grains of powder doesn't produce a lot of barrel vibration in the first place. Even so, again wood and water don't mix well, and it could be a problem...albeit most of us don't regularly push a .22 for accuracy out beyond 50 to 75 yards anyway.
I make sure all my center fire rifles are free floated as a matter of principle, and to date the results have proven this to be the best course.
FWIW.
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Interestingly, Weatherby rifle barrels are not free-floated in their factory stocks: "the majority of Weatherby rifles have a pressure point at the front of the stock" which, if removed, "voids the warranty". ... Is this "pressure point" near the muzzle in place to stabilize the vibration harmonics, reducing whippiness?
I owned an early Sako rifle which also did not have a free-floated barrel .. and it was a one-hole shooter.
All of my current rifles (Kimbers, Win M70s) are free-floated and, while I have no complaints about their accuracy, none quite match that old Sako .. lol.
I owned an early Sako rifle which also did not have a free-floated barrel .. and it was a one-hole shooter.
All of my current rifles (Kimbers, Win M70s) are free-floated and, while I have no complaints about their accuracy, none quite match that old Sako .. lol.
The idea of pressure under the barrel near the front of the stock is to quiet down the vibrations of the barrel, as the bullet goes through it. Some barrels are designed to subdue the vibrations and will shoot best when free floated. A great many other sporting type barrels will be greatly improved by barrel pressure, which will greatly decrease the vibrations of it.
The supreme test with any new to you rifle you get, is to get the best bench rest you can get and carefully squeeze off five shots, one right after the other, so the barrel gets hot.
Oh, I can hear the hunters screaming that it's only the first one that counts, so why worry about the rest. Let them scream, I want an accurate rifle and if it changes poi when it gets hot, then it is not an accurate rifle.
So, if the impact changes with shooting, take the stock off and look at where the barrel is hitting wood. Sand out every place the barrel hits the wood, so the barrel is free floating and try the five shot group, to let the barrel heat up. If the group is satisfactory for you, great, you are done.
If poi changes with it heating up, then put pressure under the front of the barrel. A good way to try it is to use short pieces of electrical tape, to gradually put pressure under the barrel, piece at a time, after the action screws are tightened up. In the glory days of shooting, when there were so many shooting competitions, experienced shooters thought it should take about six pounds to move the barrel off the fore stock and many of them carried a spring scale in their shooting equipment, so they could measure the pressure and adjust it, if required.
To see how world class shooters, 100 yard bench rest and long range shooters, handled the situation, read the chapter on barrel bedding in the book, "The Accurate Rifle," by Warren Page.
The supreme test with any new to you rifle you get, is to get the best bench rest you can get and carefully squeeze off five shots, one right after the other, so the barrel gets hot.
Oh, I can hear the hunters screaming that it's only the first one that counts, so why worry about the rest. Let them scream, I want an accurate rifle and if it changes poi when it gets hot, then it is not an accurate rifle.
So, if the impact changes with shooting, take the stock off and look at where the barrel is hitting wood. Sand out every place the barrel hits the wood, so the barrel is free floating and try the five shot group, to let the barrel heat up. If the group is satisfactory for you, great, you are done.
If poi changes with it heating up, then put pressure under the front of the barrel. A good way to try it is to use short pieces of electrical tape, to gradually put pressure under the barrel, piece at a time, after the action screws are tightened up. In the glory days of shooting, when there were so many shooting competitions, experienced shooters thought it should take about six pounds to move the barrel off the fore stock and many of them carried a spring scale in their shooting equipment, so they could measure the pressure and adjust it, if required.
To see how world class shooters, 100 yard bench rest and long range shooters, handled the situation, read the chapter on barrel bedding in the book, "The Accurate Rifle," by Warren Page.
sir_springer
Regular
- Location
- East Kootenays
As I understand it, all Weatherby Mark V rifles of late are shipped with a proof target signed off by Mr. Weatherby himself, thus the MOA guarantee. Alter the rifle in any manner, accuracy is no longer Weatherby's problem...which is understandable. The pressure point is intended to control barrel vibration...whippininess somewhat overstates the condition.
The older Remington 700 BDL's used to come with a very thick and glossy finish, something snagged from the aerospace industry or some such design. It was specifically intended to seal a wood stock completely, preventing moisture from altering the stock. Probably worked pretty good, mine would shoot cloverleaf like groups regularly, but then again it had a bull barrel, too, which doesn't require much taming.
Most factory standard wood stocks these days are not sealed in such a manner, buyers of late don't like shiny nearly so much. Wood, being what it is, can work well on one rifle, and not worth a damn on the next.
I've handled a lot of bargain rifles with synthetic stocks that, politely speaking, have forearms about as stable as a cheap tent in a ten mph breeze. Hang a bi-pod off of one of these, or wrap that sling around your arm for the shot, and all bets are off!
http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_bolt_action_economy_rifles.htm
I read this article a few years back. Chuck's take is pretty interesting. Also worth a read is his article on the poor quality of today's firearms.
I read this article a few years back. Chuck's take is pretty interesting. Also worth a read is his article on the poor quality of today's firearms.
Some factory Tupperware stocks are so limp
That free-floating the barrel still allows it to randomly bang the barrel when shooting. In cases like that a relatively inert forend that touches all the time is better than one that touches some
Of the time.
Many rimfires don't have real
Recoil lugs or
Much of anything except the screws pulling the barrelled action into
The stock. Take away the factory make pressure points and you are worse off than before. I've fixed a
Few of those. Everytime a gun magazine prints a bedding article all the kids want to
Free float their .22s. Speaking of bedding, if you don't bed the action don't bother to
free float the barrel. You're probably wasting your time
and might make things worse.
Some rifles shoot Better floated, and some don't. Some
Hold zero better flosted, but there's a whole lot of rifles that hold zero just fine the other way. Heck, these days the average rifle seems to have a synthetic stock anyway.
There was a time that one of the characteristics of
a highend gun was perfectly fitted wood that looked like
It grew around the metal. Freefloated might be better, and pressure points may work very well, but remember that the claims
Are made by the same ad men who call sand blasted "non reflective" and a 2 dollar Tupperware weatherproof, and potmetal and plastic bottom "metal" lightweight. They might be sort of right, but come on, cheaper was the goal.
There's a few reasons to not float a barrel. FWIW most of my rifles are
Bedded and floated, but not all of them.
That free-floating the barrel still allows it to randomly bang the barrel when shooting. In cases like that a relatively inert forend that touches all the time is better than one that touches some
Of the time.
Many rimfires don't have real
Recoil lugs or
Much of anything except the screws pulling the barrelled action into
The stock. Take away the factory make pressure points and you are worse off than before. I've fixed a
Few of those. Everytime a gun magazine prints a bedding article all the kids want to
Free float their .22s. Speaking of bedding, if you don't bed the action don't bother to
free float the barrel. You're probably wasting your time
and might make things worse.
Some rifles shoot Better floated, and some don't. Some
Hold zero better flosted, but there's a whole lot of rifles that hold zero just fine the other way. Heck, these days the average rifle seems to have a synthetic stock anyway.
There was a time that one of the characteristics of
a highend gun was perfectly fitted wood that looked like
It grew around the metal. Freefloated might be better, and pressure points may work very well, but remember that the claims
Are made by the same ad men who call sand blasted "non reflective" and a 2 dollar Tupperware weatherproof, and potmetal and plastic bottom "metal" lightweight. They might be sort of right, but come on, cheaper was the goal.
There's a few reasons to not float a barrel. FWIW most of my rifles are
Bedded and floated, but not all of them.
Thanks for the info.
That Parker Hale action locks into the stock like a glove, I actually fitted another Parker Hale action into a new used stock and it was the same, some minor adjustment from one model year to another but you have to knock the action into the stock with a rubber mallet, they are tight.
I don't like plastic stocks, wood all the way and I like old guns. This is why I was asking the question, a lot of these guns that were originally free floated have stocks that warp and shoot poorly, most of them just need to be tuned up again to get them running right again.
I guess I should take the action out of the stock on that 22 and see how the action locks in, it is a BSA bolt action, used to shoot great but I have not taken too much time to play in a while. Don't worry, I will run some rounds through them before changing anything, I really did not know why they chose one way or another until this thread.
Thanks
