any reason NOT to use a Beretta 92 orr Girsan Regard for IDPA?

JR Hartman said:
Scott, its just a class thing. If I leave it cocked in the holster, I have to shoot in enhanced service pistol. If I decock it I get to shoot in stock service pistol.

Same as other pistols with decockers.

Odd tho, that with striker fired pistols(Glock, Ruger SR9/40, Styer etc) those can shoot in ssp, but be cocked in the holster.
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The mechanics escape me but IIRC the gun has a safety/decocker set up. In any event the safety must be applied or the gun decocked to play in ESP. If the safety is can be applied without decocking then you could shoot it that way as well.

The long initial trigger pull can be a distraction and an impediment in shooting IDPA vs the striker fired guns in either of the two divisions the gun can play in. That said if you are out to have fun and want to see how well you can shoot the 92 then go with it. There are folks who do quite well with the gun but like any sport the shooter has something to do with the results as well.

ESP allows DA/SA and SA guns to be holstered cocked & locked ie safety on. For all the mods allowed in ESP the classifier and shooting times are almost identical with virtually no significant difference in times. Might be a message there as to how much all the mods allowed make in real world shooting but that is another topic for discussion.

Shoot it and enjoy yourself.

Take Care

Bob
 
JR Hartman said:
thanx North, do you know of a good place in Canada for those parts?
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Not in Canada I'm afraid

Brownells usually stocks the mainsprings; but you can also order the trigger kit & mainspring (plus any other number of tuning springs) from Wolff directly:

h ttp://www.gunsprings.com/

Use USPS ground not UPS, shipping will be far more reasonable.

Good luck!
 
John, we had this discussion at one of the practice evenings but I'm guessing that you forgot what with having that "new gun smell" in your nose :D

You CANNOT use your gun in ESP because there is no safety to engage. The others you've seen with cocked guns before the timer goes off are shooting with guns that have a safety which can be engaged before putting the gun in the holster. The Beretta and Girsan do not have this. They ONLY have a de-cocker. For these and other guns like them decocking IS the safety. Many of the Sigs are in the same boat. So these guns are SSP only with the hammer decocked prior to holstering to be able to do so safely.

The CZ's you've seen two of the obvious folks using DO have safeties that can be engaged when cocked so the trigger will not let the hammer drop. That is why they are using them in ESP.... That and their fingers are too short to deal well with the longer first pull of the DA shot.... :D
 
BCRider said:
John, we had this discussion at one of the practice evenings but I'm guessing that you forgot what with having that "new gun smell" in your nose :D

You CANNOT use your gun in ESP because there is no safety to engage. The others you've seen with cocked guns before the timer goes off are shooting with guns that have a safety which can be engaged before putting the gun in the holster. The Beretta and Girsan do not have this. They ONLY have a de-cocker. For these and other guns like them decocking IS the safety. Many of the Sigs are in the same boat. So these guns are SSP only with the hammer decocked prior to holstering to be able to do so safely.

The CZ's you've seen two of the obvious folks using DO have safeties that can be engaged when cocked so the trigger will not let the hammer drop. That is why they are using them in ESP.... That and their fingers are too short to deal well with the longer first pull of the DA shot.... :D
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Wrong! The 92's can play in ESP and are started decocked. The M&P's and Glocks have no safeties to engage and play quite well in ESP.

You might want to read page 33 Rule # 8.2.2.1.6.3. Referencing the rule book is always the best source for information relating to allowed equipment. You can down load a copy from here: idpa.com

Sig DA/SA are in the same boat they can play in either SSP or ESP

CZ DA/SA models can play in either SSP or ESP including those with safeties and or their decocker models.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Ah, yes I was wrong on that. The only thing is that there's the common perception that having to take the first shot in DA then subsequent shots in SA would be a disadvantage.
 
BCRider said:
Ah, yes I was wrong on that. The only thing is that there's the common perception that having to take the first shot in DA then subsequent shots in SA would be a disadvantage.
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Well a decocker model has a somewhat shorter pull than a DA/SA gun playing in SSP where the DA/SA gun has to start hammer fully down while the decocker model need only be decocked. While the first DA pull is longer and likely not quite as fast as a SA or striker fired first pull most of us have other issues that distract from our best performance from my experience. I know my CZ times aren't significantly different than my M&P times shooting the classifier. My transitions are faster with the lighter polymer guns though as are my draws on average nd the reset is slightly faster with my tuned M&P. For all practical purposes I am not sure it matters what guns most of us bottom dwellers shoot. You might just as well shoot something that fits your hand and you like to shoot. As long as you are enjoying yourself that is what is important.

Take Care

Bob
 
see, that's the thing for me, I will never shoot at a provincial match(I don't think), I just shoot for fun and to get better at handling the firearms.

My Ruger SR9 has been great so far, as it draws fast, the striker and trigger pull are nice(yes they are), and it fits on my hip well.

However the Girsan fits my hand almost like it was made for my hand, and its more accurate.

To make things even more confusing, I have a 5" 1911 in the mail :)
 
You realize that with this third pistol that you're on the slippery slope to Hell along with the rest of us, right? :D

As for bigger matches like the Provincials I'd suggest "never say never". A few more months of practice nights and some monthlies and a weekend of Provincials will be just another match.
 
BCRider said:
You realize that with this third pistol that you're on the slippery slope to Hell along with the rest of us, right? :D

As for bigger matches like the Provincials I'd suggest "never say never". A few more months of practice nights and some monthlies and a weekend of Provincials will be just another match.
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My bet he doesn't get by Christmas :>)

Take Care

Bob
 
Oh, the slope has already been slid down, mwahahahaha!! :) I wanna coupla revolvas, and a Steyer, and a coupla .22s next as far as pistolahs go :)

Bob, I might have to hold off till after Christmas, I have spent a fair amount of money on guns and ammo and holsters and ammo pouches and cleaning stuff and cases and....
 
JR Hartman said:
I haven't shot enhanced, but it doesn't take much. Not "race" guns at all. Just not stock anymore.

I haven't put a cocked hammer fired pistol in my holster yet, just my Ruger SR9. I have seen many pistols with their hammers back in holsters tho.
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ESP allows cocked and locked starts. This means hammer guns maybe started cocked with the safety applied. Decocker models must be decocked.

ESP allows SA guns ( HIgh Power & 1911's o name two designs). SSP the guns must be DA/SA, DAO or Striker Fired. Check out the rulebook for the rules relating to modifications for each division eg ESP allows for magwells, SSP does not.

For all the mods you are allowed to do with your firearm in ESP, note the E stands for Enhanced, the scores typically are virtually identical between Divisions in the larger matches. This only confirms what most realize it is the archer not the arrow.

While the two major designs in IDPA for SSP and ESP are now either the Glock 34 or the M&P Pro I would suggest most Marksman/Sharpshooter shooters can choose any pistol they want and score pretty much as well no matter the brand or design. It really falls to what the shooter likes in the way of a handgun. If the OP likes and shoots the Beretta well he will have a blast enjoying it in IDPA. The fellow who won the Ontario Provincials a few years ago was a Soucie shooting a Beretta 92. The gun didn't seem to slow him down or if it did not enough to let this SS sneak a win.LOL

One of the guys I shoot with weekly uses a Beretta 92 now and then and he misses with it just about as well as he does with his revolver. That said the fun factor for him is no less. With that I will put my hard hat on and wait for his reply....just kidding Paul :>)

Take Care

Bob
 
MartyK2500 said:
Beretta is missing factory parts availability. Thats why i run CZ. I started with a 92FS, and if they would stille produce the brigadier elite ll with spare parts available i'd be running that.
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I have been shooting Beretta in IPSC for 4 years, never had any problem getting parts, sights, springs, mags can all be purchased online and even some from canadian dealers, and most factory small parts, extractors, firing pins, ejectors, etc can be found on Brownells. I was using an elite1a right up till Feburary when i bought the m9a3, other than the elite having the thicker brig slide it is almost the same gun and shoots as good, maybe even better. I used the elite1a because i prefer the thinner vertec grip but if you prefer the regular 92 grip with the palm swell like on the elite II the m9a3 also comes with a wrap around grip with the same profile.

As for a couple other posts I read.
Not sure about IDPA but in IPSC the Beretta was good enough for 2nd place at the worlds in 2011. With a 12lb hammer spring the DA pull is reduced to just over 6 lbs and with some polishing maybe a bit lower, and again with some polishing the SA can be reduced as low as you dare, some where between 2lb and 4lb seems to be most popular depending on the shooter. Having a DA weight close to that of a striker fired for first shot and then a SA weight of even less for all consecutive shots is not what I consider a disadvantage especially when you couple that with the extra weight of the frame over polymer and the reduced mass of the cutout slide both of which help to reduce felt recoil.
 
bollox said:
Basically SSP is for DA/SA and striker fired. ESP is SA (and you are allowed checkering etc)

No optics at all in IDPA. It's philosophy is based on concealed carry and using what you would carry. Not buying what makes you faster (kinda like IPSC)
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ESP includes SA and any gun that meets SSP requirements (DA/SA, DAO & Decocker Models) along with a few extra mods that are not allowed in SSP.
 
Shoot what you like. You will figure out what guns are best for competition. I started with a beretta 90-two. Now I'm all CZ You will then learn that IPSC / USPSA is where it is at!! I still shoot both. Mostly IPSC.
 
I don't compete, but if you find the DA/SA to be an issue, I replace my spring with a D series spring and put an elite II hammer in it, along with a Wilson combat reduced pull trigger (slightly shorter, great for smaller hands) and it's a completely different experience.

The D spring made the DA pull easier, but it was the hammer/trigger combo that completely changed the feel. Not sure why it made such a difference but its one of the nicest and cleanest triggers on a pistol I have ever shot...
 
John,
I bought a Beretta SB-C which is a compact version of the 92 series, planning to compete with it in IDPA also. I picked the Compact due to the smaller size which, in my mind, fit the concept of IDPA better.
I tried it out to see if I could be competitive with it.
My observations:
I did not like the transition between the DA/SA pull. This has always been the issue with DA/SA pistols like SIGs, Berettas and CZs without a lot of practice. I also did not like the safety placement. The up sweep to disengage is counter-intuitive to a 1911 style. I also found the grip on the compact to be quite short which did not give a consistent positive grip during the draw. The Beretta also did not balance well. It was a front heavy gun. The regular 92FS balances a lot better, however.
I will continue to shoot my G19 as a result.
The 92 is a good combat handgun as a backup to a rifle but it is not geared well to speed shooting competitions. YMMV.
 
Still alive said:
The 92 is a good combat handgun as a backup to a rifle but it is not geared well to speed shooting competitions. YMMV.
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Ben Stoeger came 2nd at the world shoot in 2011 with a 92, he switched to Tanfogilo which are considered the top gun for this type of speed competition and came 3rd in 2014 so I would say its geared pretty well.

The advantage to DA/SA is it allows you to have a 5+ lb trigger for first shot similar to a stryker fired gun and then you can have a much lighter trigger for all subsequent shots.
 
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