Any trapdoor shooters here?

Alonzo said:
Hey Gerald;
Welcome to the fraternity of Trapdoor shooters.
Let us start with the basics. The original front sight on the trapdoor will cause it to shoot high...to the tune of nearly 6 to 8" high at 50 yards with the rear sight at it's lowest setting. The idea used with muzzleloaders to compensate for a high point of impact will not work in this case (reducing powder charge to achieve a lower point of impact). So altering your powder charge in the 45-70 will not give you the results you want. In every shooter trapdoor I have owned, the first thing I did was to remove the front sight...CAREFULLY, and replace with a taller blade. This will, with experimentation lower the point of impact. Plus it will have the added bonus of giving you a wider front sight blade, which will dramatically improve your accuracy. The front sight blade height will end up about 1/8 to 3/16" taller then the original height.
Wheel Weight alloy...The weight weights we were able to procure had a harder consistency then pure lead. I cannot quote Brinnel Hardness as we never bothered. Neither did we bother combining tin, antimony and lead. All the effort was not beneficial in the long run. The "scratch test" worked for us...if you draw your finger nail across a pure lead projectile it will leave a deep scratch. Our wheel weight alloy would leave a mark though would not deeply scratch the surface. Pure Linotype projectiles would not leave any kind of mark. We did experiment with mixing Linotype and pure lead and came up a with a mix of about 3 to 1...pure lead to Linotype. These worked OK, though not as well as the wheel weight bullets.
The key here is to keep the process simple. If you listen to some guys with great ideas and an empty trophy cabinet you just get frustrated. The previous posts explain a lot that came from years of experience. The old saying is "Paralysis by over analysis"...keep it simple and the old girl will work wonders for you.
Yes, all you experts will laugh yourself silly at that approach...but guess what...it put a ton of trophies on the shelf. At a black powder shoot several years ago, I listened to a guy talk about how he mixed his lead with this alloy and that alloy, adding beeswax, and eye of newt, . He also told me about his "special secret" bullet lube of paraffin wax, Grape Jello, liquid hand sanitizer and ground up Yak toe nails. According to him, his 45-70 would shoot the dew off a gnats eyebrow at 300 yards in a 50 mile an hour cross wind, yet he did not win any awards at that match. The old trapdoor did well that day.
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Hi Alonzo,

Glad to have some help about this rifle...

I talked to my gunsmith and I got a higher front sight: Great !! for the range 50 to 150 meters !

To 250 meters, I put the old sight on.

What kind of mould do you use ? Bullet sized to 0,4XX inch. Kind of powder ? with x grains ? Compression ? Wad, if any ? OAL ( 0,0xx inch from the rifling ?



This Trapdoor is like a beautiful woman ! ! ! !

Go carefully ... and ask some experts before ... firing !!

Thank you !

Great thread !!!!

Gerald
 
Hey Gerald;
Refer back to my post #2...it covers 95% of what you are asking.
As for O.A.L. with the type of bullet I was using it was quite simple. With The case trimmed to proper length, I would seat the bullet so about 1/4 of the first driving band was visible...I did not worry about being close to the rifling as it did not make that much difference. I knew a fellow who was also an avid trapdoor shooter, he did not size his cases, just thoroughly clean the interior. He sized the bullet to just bore size and nothing more...the bullet would slide in and out of the case and the powder charge was not compressed as he only used about 40 Gr. FFg. I tried his recipe and found it be less consistent then the loads I was using.
BTW, I should mention that the loads were a family success story as both my dad and brother also used the same loads in their 45-70...dad used another trapdoor and brother used and Rolling Block repro. There were B.P. shoots where the three of us would take first, second and third in Cartridge rifle matches. Got a few guys wound up...especially the "Sharps shooters".
BTWX2...no need to change out the front sight if you are shooting longer distances...just add about 150 yards tot he rear sight setting and you should be fairly close. I was clanging 300 yard gongs with the sight set at 450 yards...a bit of experimentation will be needed to zero in.
 
For me this is the best thread in the whole Forum and a perfect time having just acquired my Trapdoor.
Alonzo, I cannot thank-you enough as your contributions to this thread are awesome.
My first question regarding my rifle would be what sort of cleaning rod would it have carried since it is marked 1884.
 
Some advice, but NOT trapdoor. In my .45-70 rolling block and sharps, I found WW would give leading if water quenched. Much less so if air quenched.

Wheen weight mixed 50:50 with pure lead is a close approximation of 30:1 alloy and in my guns leaves no leading at all.

just a suggestion.

I also use an RCBS Lubramatic and size to .459" with an appropriate lube to the powder, either for black or smokless. I doubt the sizing helps much if anything, but it does a good job filling the lube grooves ;)

I prefer the Lee 405, but have also done well with the Lee 340.
 
Kevan said:
My first question regarding my rifle would be what sort of cleaning rod would it have carried since it is marked 1884.
Click to expand...

The trapdoor Infantry rifle was designed with three basic cleaning rods, the first two were vitrually identical. They had a serrated and slotted end, with cupped appearance,similar to the M1868 and M1870 rifles. The difference was that the the first model 1873 rifle had a flat end on the "cup" and the later versions had cupped end on the "cup". The reason for this was so the friring pin would not get damaged when cleaning the rifle with the breechblock closed.
The M1884 style cleaned rod did away with the serrated nad slotted appearance and had a taper from the rod catch swell to the end of the rod. The end had a buttopn appearance and was slotted...additionally the end of the rod was also cupped to prevent damage to the firing pin.
I do not have a photo of hte rods to demonstrate though can take a few photos of the ones in my collection...I have the second type 1873 and the 1884.
BTW...the ramrod Bayonet models were quite different and had thre different variations based on the rifle model...the M1880 Triangular Ramrod bayonet, the M1884, and the M1888. The '84 and '88 were quite similar with the following difference. The M1884 locking cuts were a tapered cut ending in sharp edge...the M1888 had dual sharp edge appearance with rounded bottom cut...the locking latches between the '84 and '88 were dramatically different and very easy to identify. There were 1015 M1880 made, 1000 M1884 were made and I cannot recall offhand how many M1888's that were made...somewhere in the 10's of thousands.
Cheers
 
First cleaning...

Hi,

This thread helps me a lot with that Trapdoor.

I decided to "clean" that barrel.

W H A T a job !! I use Shooters choice and I made the cleaning process about ten times with some 30 brushing eacy time...

Still dirty...

I also tried some 600 grit paste...

Still dirty...

Any suggestion for something else ? OR I keep on brushing till the end of the winter ...

Any advice is welcomes...

Thank you.

Gerald

( this thread should a Trapdoor sticky ?? )
 
geraldbergeron said:
Hi,

W H A T a job !! YUP..BEEN THERE!!! I use Shooters choice and I made the cleaning process about ten times with some 30 brushing eacy time...
Yes they can be time consuming. I recall spending a weekend doing virtually the same thing. It eventually will come out clean. You are most likely pulling out old fouling and crud...now don't be disappointed if the finished product looks a bit rougher then when you started. It will still shoot the lights out. NOTE. if the bore is a bit rough make sure you use the Wonder-wad...actually you should be using it anyhow as it does protect the base of the bullet
OR I keep on brushing till the end of the winter ...
HELL NO...leave some time for winter shooting!!!!!
Any advice is welcomes...
Take your time and put the time in and you may be surprised. The shooter trapdoor I recently sold had a fair looking bore, and after some work it looked pretty damn good, though it did take a lot of time and effort...the results were worth it.
( this thread should a Trapdoor sticky ?? )
Click to expand...

For most cases these old guns have had a fair amount of use and will take a lot of tender loving care...wellllll, OK maybe go easy on the "loving" part. :D
An important consideration is if you want to keep the gun as a collectible shooter, a shooter only or as a collectible only. This will dictate how much work you want to put into it to get to perform it's best.
In 1990 I conducted a shooting test of the firearms used at Custer's Last Stand. the Trapdoor Carbine I used was good solid original piece and the loads I used in the test equaled the ballistics of the original 45-55-405 that was used at he battle. The load was NOT the most accurate load for the gun, but was the closest to the original loading. That carbine, with the right load would print a sub 1" 5 shot group at 50 yards with the crude sights it had...the Custer test load would not come close to this accuracy.

When I was hard core trapdoor collecting I had a rack full of 45-70 trapdoors to choose from...there were a few that I never did shoot and the ones in the collection now will not be fired.
 
Mine went to the range for the first time yesterday and to be honest I was quite suprised at how well it shot.
I managed to duplicate the "Alonzo load " with the exception of Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads, instead using a felt wad with SPG lube well rubbed in.
In spite of a strong wind and torrential downpour the old gun easily managed "minute of dinner plate" and I was quite thrilled.

Now I'm looking for two things..... another nice Trapdoor and also a source for Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads... ;)
So if anyone knows of either please let me know.
 
Shot a 1884 Trapdoor for yrs till it got traded :rolleyes:
Now I'm just dieing to shoot a deer with my U.S. marked 50-70 Carbine :)
I have always just used 4198 & toilet paper filler, I hate BP :redface:
All my casts are straight wheelweight, my 50-70 has a perfect shiny barrel that shoots .50 cal as cast muzzle-loader bullets better than I can aim them :cool:
 
geraldbergeron said:
Hi,

This thread helps me a lot with that Trapdoor.

I decided to "clean" that barrel.

W H A T a job !! I use Shooters choice and I made the cleaning process about ten times with some 30 brushing eacy time...

Still dirty...

I also tried some 600 grit paste...

Still dirty...

Any suggestion for something else ? OR I keep on brushing till the end of the winter ...

Any advice is welcomes...

Thank you.

Gerald

( this thread should a Trapdoor sticky ?? )
Click to expand...

I have heard that using oven cleaner will remove old crud but I am only posting this to see what any ones hands on experience is on this.
 
Cleaning this antique bore...

Hi,

I need some advices...

I am cleaning my Trapdoor 1891. I follow Wolf's method.

WOW .... three times a day since 11 days and still dirt + + +

But I scope the barrel and I see this image: this is not the real picture but it is like this one:



bore1.jpg




I am still cleaning with bore brush and Hoopes 9 and dirt is still coming out.

I will keep on cleaning as Wolf said ... but I was wondering what those lines are ??

Thank you for your comments and advices.

Gerald
 
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I've used JB bore paste with excellent results. Wrap a large cleaning patch on a wire brush and swab the bore a few times, the first couple of times it will be black, then should gradually come clean.
Cheers nessy.
 
You are making progress. Take your time and keep at it, the bore will clean up.
I had one a decades ago that was incredibly dirty. I ran all kinds of stuff through it in hopes of cleaning it out. Out of desperation or frustration I fired a few factory loaded 405 jacketed rounds through it then went back to cleaning again. Amazingly it came clean ion about an hours work on it. I suspect the jacketed rounds and the smokeless powder dislodged the fouling and helped with the progress of a thorough cleaning.
JB bore paste is essentially polishing compound mixed with liquid bore cleaner...it contains a very mild abrasive, which has no effect on the steel in the bore of a firearm. I have used it as well with good results on smaller calibers. I ran it through a Remington m1903 which had a dark bore...took a couple dozen JB patches to eventually come clean...the bore was still dark though...and it shot great after that!!!!!
 
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