Anyone else tired of the AR Piston Craze?

Corpus said:
They throw off accuracy. The gun is not designed to handle them, and they cause a whole slew of other problems because of that. It's unnecessary, as the AR works great for civilians shooters and hunters as is (we are not in combat people). It makes a the original, and still ###y in it's KISS Form, rifle look even more atrociously gaudy. Especially with ridiculous rail systems and flashlights and other heavy, heavy add-ons that defeat the purpose of the LIGHT stock AR. I'm just wondering when the craze will end, and what all the people who bought them will feel like when they realize they payed a heck of a lot of money for something that essentially messed up their perfect as it was AR. Anyone else feel this way? Anyone else messed with them and realized how unnecessary, and even damaging they really are to the basic AR/M4 ?

Stop screwing with Perfection: THE END OF THE LINE - As good as an AR is ever going to be.
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Corpus said:
Piston systems do not interface well with the AR bolt carrier, and gas return tube due to their more violent, and herky-jerky operating movement. This neigh mis-matched interface also wears out the bolt carrier faster than normal, and increases the likelihood that the free-float firing pen will over penetrate the primer, or even break. They also produce only slightly less fouling than direct gas impingement. Most importantly however, they destroy the inherent accuracy provided by direct-gas impingement, and add extra parts and springs to maintain and or break. So outside of costing an arm and a leg to do something worse, they are an excellent reason to buy an AR design, but wish it was an AK.

The point being, the AR system is mature, and works well, especially for non-combat shooters. If you want an AR, then you want the accuracy and simplicity of the gas system. If you want a piston, then you want an AK or VZ. Trying to mix two completely different philosophies is never a good idea, and neither is the drop-in gas piston craze for AR's. The grips people have had with the AR have never been about it's gas system anyway. They have been about it's tolerances. The AR is a close tolerance weapon, and stuffing in an incompatible gas system is not the way to fix what can not be fixed. It's a good way to mess up something that works just fine. Go buy an AK or a VZ.
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Corpus said:
So long as it's non-corrosive ammo, and you have a chromed barrel (which most do nowdays) then how much cleaning is really necessary? People seem to believe that an AR must be "eat off of" clean to perform. That's not true. Hit the receiver with gun-scrub and a towel, hit the barrel with gun-scrub, Hoppe's #9 and a half dozen to a dozen patches, oil the gun through-out with Remington spray lube, wipe up the excess, and call it a day; 20 minutes or less. Can you still get fouling out with a patch after that? Yes, but so-what, doesn't matter. Is there still some fouling here and there in the receiver? Yes, but so-what, doesn't matter. What I just described is a better cleaning than combat AR's generally receive, and they still work. Yours will work even better and you don't even have to worry about getting shot at! Also, my AR's get this treatment only a couple of times a year (unless I shoot a lot in a single session (300rds. or so) then they get it three times a year. Once in a blue-moon I'll scrub them, but only on a boring Saturday afternoon, sometimes years apart from one another. They function and shoot just fine and dandy. A Piston AR requires the same amount of cleaning, but needs slightly less to be "eat off of" clean. Who cares if it's easier to get "eat off of" clean? We're not going to an inspection, and a Piston totally screws the whole point of an AR, which is accuracy. Then again, the AR was meant to be light, and everyone is hanging 10lbs. of BS off them these days. It's a silly world. Blow your money on Pistons. It's your right. But the truth is, you're just blowing money for no reason, and probably f-ing up your gun.
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Corpus said:
The 416 is a completely re-engineered upper assembly. I'm talking about drop-in Piston systems that a lot of people seem so crazy about. The 416 and an AR with a Piston Conversion system are not the same thing at all. One is a race-car underneath stock-car shell. The other is a Chevy Nova with a big-block dropped in it, without uprading the engine blocks or suspension. That's one retarded car, bound for failure.
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Corpus said:
Lots of clean patches and gunscrub, and Hoppe's #9, at your firebase? Most troops in country live in the big bases. It's a different story in a firebase, and the M4's still work there as well. The M4 works in a lot worse conditions than people give them credit for, and most people think firefights are all full-auto afairs with thousands of rounds and melted barrels like they see in the movies. Rate of fire, ammo spent, and spray and pray are not actually common as in the movies. Several aimed shots or a few suppression shots a minute are more the order of the day so far as I understand. What has fully auto done for the average soldier today? Answer is not much, fouling included. Then again, these forums are not for soldiers in combat, they are for guys who like to shoot and hunt, and possibly defend themselves against something less than an Army, but meticulously clean AR's are not what you find in the real war, and the AR can take it all with minimal cleaning compared to "meticulous." An M4/AR/etc. is a RIFLE, not a sub-machine gun, and it is to be employed and cared for as such.
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I read all this rant and must say, you use many words to say little.

OK, we get it - you don't like AR pistons... others do.

Can you not be firm in your opinions, yet accept those of others may differ?

Move on already, this thread is teh fail :jerkit:.
 
The PWS retro kit looks like a winner as it does not change the cycling geometry of the bolt carrier.
 
Scocou said:
I read all this rant and must say, you use many words to say little.

OK, we get it - you don't like AR pistons... others do.

Can you not be firm in your opinions, yet accept those of others may differ?

Move on already, this thread is teh fail :jerkit:.
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But the thread was originally about people who were "tired of it." Your posting, and others, were the failure. You see that now.
 
Well, part of the hobby is to find execuses to buy more toys.....if someone put a HK416 upper in front of me with a reasonable price tag, I won't even think about it,

For all practical purpposes, between an "aftermarket retrofit" piston system or a Colt/Noveske/KAC AR, the choice is obvious. Give me an E3 bolt system with a CHF barrel.

If someone can come up with a gas piston system that doesnt make the rifle weight million pounds, I am all for it.
 
KevinB said:
Secondly the AR was not built for a piston - high round count "purpose built" piston uppers will demonstrate that no one has it all figured out.
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Kev, what round counts are we talking about?

I want to draw a parallel to when the 40 cal pistols started coming out. Most mfgrs said that the round was built on a 9mm frame and gave approx the same life span. The only one that didn't was S&W, they did the testing and knew thei frames (in aluminum) had a lower life span.

If everyone is expecting the same life span out of a piston gun as the DGI guns and they are seeing lower life spans, maybe their expectations are unrealistic. It took 2-5 years for mfgrs to admit that the 40 was pounding their guns. The same is going to happen with piston guns.

Receiver extensions, BCG's and upper receivers will get replaced at a higher rate no doubt. I'm not sure if that is a reason to wholey right of the gun.

Boltgun
 
KevinB said:
Actually - most if not all of the piston conversions ruin your gun.
Secondly the AR was not built for a piston - high round count "purpose built" piston uppers will demonstrate that no one has it all figured out.

I sold my Hk416's - simply because I found I could get a better gun in a DI system, and while I liked the Hk's people where willing to pay way more than they where really worth.
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ar wasn't built for a forward assist either, but that modification was a god send
 
I've been firing AR type rifles (military and civilian)for about 25 years. I never had a problem with the original gas tube design. The piston rod adds weight to rifle and becomes another maintenance point. The carrier group was a part of the gas system. As long as you kept it dry it functioned fine...and i laugh at the nimrods with all the rails for accessories and show up at the range wearing tactical gear. The AR ergonomics and basic design is still being copied today.(the chinese butchered it mind you) Best military rifle so far. Cooling is not an issue. It is not a support weapon. Especially, with five round magazine capacities.
 
BCWA3F2016M4.jpg

When I get an AR, if I can ever afford one, that'll be the way it'll look.
I have nothing else to add :redface:
 
I totally agree, if you want a piston rifle, there are other 5.56mm rifles that already fill that role and have a proven battlefield track record.

AR18, SIG 55x, FN FNC, Daewoo K1/k2, Galil, HK G36... just to name a few...

Making the AR15 piston is an American facination to diversify their beloved black rifle, much like adding spinners and spoilers and bandpass subs to a Corvette/Mustang.
 
The first issue is the why of the piston?

The very design of the AR's aluminum upper makes a piston a poor idea to fit. Pistons work well sliding on steel bolt rails - like a FAL, AR18, AK etc.

Aluminum is soft - even when the exterior is HCA, the underlying material is soft. Since pistons do not give strait line recoil like the DI system, the carrier is forced to tilt. Even with Anti-tilt pads on the bolt their is force transfered non laterally to the aluminum.
What happens is aluminum dents and tolerances get worse, and its downhill from there.

Secondly - the piston regardless of claims of freefloating, the piston is tensioned. The force of this tension acts against the barrel at the gas block when the weapon comes back into battery. Original Hk416's had heavier barrels to minimize this affect on accuracy.

Next, the bolt group - due to the design of the M16 bolt the bolt is a piston - it ensures straight line unlocking, it also self buffers unlocking until the pressures are decreased. In a piston gun, the impact of the piston is the unlocking force, this pressure can cause excess wear. In the Hk system they have added several features to migitage this but the upper receivers do not last long compared to a DI gun.

I can go on.

I will admit that we (KAC) have a dual setup gun (will do piston or DI) as well as several different piston setups that we test. So far unless you build a dedicated platfrom upper with rails for the bolt, I think your better off with a DI gas system.
 
For what it's worth, the Norwegian military is currently making the switch from the G3 to the 416. It has already LESS than stellar feedback from the guys in Afghanistan, and those that have access to C8s are using them instead.
 
Guys, keep in mind that the DI AR has been worked on and refined for 50 years. No it's not the "best rifle in the world" because that's probably an impossibility, but it is a mature, and well understood, and well functioning rile. Engineers, smarter than all of us have worked for 2 generations on this thing. Yes politics plays heavy, but doesn't it always, and with everything. The bottom line being, the regular DI AR is a proven mature platform. If you were ever in a pinch and needed to trust your life to it you wouldn't give a damn about "new, cool, or technically." You'd just want the damn thing to work together like a symphony. The AR is not perfect, but in it's DI form it works together like a pretty-ok symphony and it's taken 50 years--of smarter people than us--to get it like that. You change one part, you muck up the works, and that's not doing you any good to have what you think is a bad-ass rock n' roll drummer backing up a classical symphony. It would sound like ass. There's a new phrase: "My drop-in piston conversion makes my AR sound like ass." And it do!
 
nemesys said:
For what it's worth, the Norwegian military is currently making the switch from the G3 to the 416. It has already LESS than stellar feedback from the guys in Afghanistan, and those that have access to C8s are using them instead.
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Yeah reason is they ordered there guns with some modifications with sub-par parts that H&K said would cause problems, they did it anyways and now they have had a few problems...LOL.

Its their own fault, if you order a Ferrari and then get some parts replaced with sub par components then it defeats the purpose. All this to save some money!
 
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