Anyone ever have a semi that outshot a bolt

You have to keep in mind that target shooters and the military have completely different standards when it comes to accuracy. A target shooter is looking for the smallest groups possible, whereas in military sniping accuracy of 1-2 moa is completely acceptable. I guarantee those navy m14's don't shoot near as good as a custom bolt gun.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that semi-auto platforms aren't near as forgiving of poor form as bolt guns are.
For sure indeed! Did anyone else besides myself watch the "NATO international competition sniper shootoff" documentary where the US Army Green Berets (Operational Black Hats) were soundly trounched at distances beyond 700 meters. They had the mistaken belief that thier M-21s and M-25s were golden. Seems I remember the Brits and Canadians really stole the show with thier bolt actioned sniper rifles.
 
I had a Swiss Arms Flat-top that would give most bolt guns a run for their money on grouping, and beat most. Now the disclaimer; the rifle was very position sensitive. I've come to view accuracy as the ability to hit targets, not to print tiny groups at some random wandering location.
 
Out of the box Knights Armament SR-25 is a sub MOA rifle.


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look up what Larue has done. They cleaned house at a long range BR match in the U.S. using Semi's. It can be done. its not the norm. It takes a very special semi. and cost it does
 
In the old days - when you could still hunt with them - I had a Colt AR-15A2 Delta HBAR - it shot 3/4 MOA with 69 grain SMKs. That was about the most accurate semi auto I ever had.

These days I am shooting and hunting with an M14 - although not so portable.

This is a ten (10) shot group - 155 SMKs with 46 grains of Varget at 100 yards off the Harris bipod shown in the pics, scope was set to 18x. The group measures just under 1-3/8 inch including that one out to the left. Excluding that one it's just under 3/4 inch.

I'm still trying to figure out why I get that occasional shot out to the left. If anyone has any Ideas I'd like to hear them. (I did not pull the shot.)

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Here's a pic of the "Lande Aspirin Murderer", I like to call it the LAM-10

P.S. Damn you DSR-1!!




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I personally think that semi's get a bad rep because most people can't figure out how to shoot 'em.
It took me a while to get used to "muscling" the gun through the shot cycle
 
When the cycling process can start AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel, semis can be made as accurate as bolt rifles.

Until then, NOPE.

Jerry

It would be interesting to know what the exact delay is (on average) from the time the detonation occurs, to when the gases start moving the bolt or piston depending, to the bullet traveling down the barrel and finally exiting.

The point of this is of course to know how much mecanical movement occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel and how much effect it has on the stability of the platform Vs no mecanical movements at all on the boltgun platform.
 
Look at the basic AR which is a very accurate semi (or at least can be made to be). The gas port is some distance from the muzzle and gas is siphoned off. This changes the bore pressure and thus bullet thrust. Is it the same every time?

Doubt it. So you have a variation in the energy affecting the bullet and the barrel. It is not and cannot be identical each and every time so you have an ongoing variable that will eventually affect the launch of that bullet.

For semis that impinge on moving parts, this variable gets even larger as parts will never move the same so that creates all manner of changes in the vibration of the rifle.

Can you see very good practical accuracy, of course and there are plenty of semis that have honest sub MOA performance even at longer distances. Will this be able to match or beat the performance you can get from a well tuned bolt gun... even some factory rifles? NO.

While in Raton, F Open rifles routinely hammered out the center of a 5" X ring. I scored a shooter that for 8 shots wasn't much over 4" in group - the indicator disk we used was hammered with holes. The final score was 1 point dropped (not by much) with a high X count. For 17 shots, the group was well under MOA at 1000yds in the wind. That tells me the mechanical accuracy of that rifle was easily inside the X ring - sub 1/2 min. He had to hold off center to hit center given the turbulent winds.

True 1/3 min to sub 1/2 min accuracy at 1000yds in an Open and some FTR rigs is now pretty common and that is for up to 22rds relays. I doubt you will find a semi that can hit MOA at that distance ON AVERAGE, let alone allow a shooter to keep them in the 10 Ring over that many rds. when the air is bouncing around.

Jerry
 
My Nemesis was a eyes opener, in my personal world of shooting, any customs or high competition rifle, will shoot with a qualified operator .1- .2 on a regular base, i believe those AR-10 and others will be regular .5 rifle, extraordinary that is, .1-.2 is for the top of the top rifles... And those are bolts... In my book that is... JP.
 
Look at the basic AR which is a very accurate semi (or at least can be made to be). The gas port is some distance from the muzzle and gas is siphoned off. This changes the bore pressure and thus bullet thrust. Is it the same every time?

Doubt it. So you have a variation in the energy affecting the bullet and the barrel. It is not and cannot be identical each and every time so you have an ongoing variable that will eventually affect the launch of that bullet.

For semis that impinge on moving parts, this variable gets even larger as parts will never move the same so that creates all manner of changes in the vibration of the rifle.

Can you see very good practical accuracy, of course and there are plenty of semis that have honest sub MOA performance even at longer distances. Will this be able to match or beat the performance you can get from a well tuned bolt gun... even some factory rifles? NO.

While in Raton, F Open rifles routinely hammered out the center of a 5" X ring. I scored a shooter that for 8 shots wasn't much over 4" in group - the indicator disk we used was hammered with holes. The final score was 1 point dropped (not by much) with a high X count. For 17 shots, the group was well under MOA at 1000yds in the wind. That tells me the mechanical accuracy of that rifle was easily inside the X ring - sub 1/2 min. He had to hold off center to hit center given the turbulent winds.

True 1/3 min to sub 1/2 min accuracy at 1000yds in an Open and some FTR rigs is now pretty common and that is for up to 22rds relays. I doubt you will find a semi that can hit MOA at that distance ON AVERAGE, let alone allow a shooter to keep them in the 10 Ring over that many rds. when the air is bouncing around.

Jerry



So we are talking about "tuned" "shooting match" style rifles?!?!


I thought the basic question was "Anyone ever have a semi that out shot a bolt".


Yup.


There are a few semis in this thread, some out of the box, that will out shoot a bolt.
 
Yup... last month I went out with a buddy: he brought his savage axis with scope & I had my mini14 with iron sights.
At 100 yds using 62 grain ammunition, he got a 2" group and I got 1 3/4".

I should have put money on it!
 
Yup... last month I went out with a buddy: he brought his savage axis with scope & I had my mini14 with iron sights.
At 100 yds using 62 grain ammunition, he got a 2" group and I got 1 3/4".

I should have put money on it!
Hang on to that mini, you got a winner there... JP.
 
I should also add that the Stag6 223 AR15 rifle I bought has a 1/2 moa guarantee. Haven't had a chance to test that yet. Les Bauer makes a 1/2 moa guaranteed Super varminter rifle as well. Some have had closer to 1/4 moa with these rifles.

Considering a very accurate bolt rifle used to be 1 moa it's pretty amazing. But as we've covered already the bench dedicated rifles along with a number of F class rifles can do better than that. Still there are a lot of bolt action rifles out there that can't.
 
My HK SL-8 out shoots my bolts some days. Some days it won't. Have to wait and see what happens when my new barrel comes in from Mystic Precision
 
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