Anyone handloading for the M14?

leonard

leonard

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Well my bullets arrived today.
Hornady FMJ BT's in 150Grn
I have also planned to load with varget powder as i've had good luck with it in the past in 308 neckings.

But i'm wondering about where everyones been loading these up too fps or psi wise?
Just looking for a ballpark or starting point for my Ladder method i use.
I've heard mention of 2950 fps as a sweet spot somewhere but i just want to make sure whats recommended for pressures before i get going.
Realising this isnt a bolt rifle and has a gas activated action i'm betting their are tolerances that should not be pushed.

I'm loading for the 18.5" I will likely start just under max clip length for OAL and see if the bullet will pull from clip and will chamber with a dummy round with bolt all the way closed as a starting point for OAL.
In my experience with clips generally they are shorter then max OAL anyways unlike bolt rifles.

I'm seeing

Hodgdon Varget- 46.5Grn = 2,914fps @(60,400 PSI) <-- pretty much spot on Nato max psi , now thats in a 24" barrel so ill likely loose atleast 100fps off that with 18.5
So if guys are doing 2950 out of these rifles then they are loading a touch hot likely loading 47 or close grains of varget to get that.

What you guys think on this subject??
 
Went a different way....

I have a "pet" load for 308 that seems to shoot well in all the rifles I've tried it in. I always have some on hand.

Any 150gr pill
42.0 grains of H-4895
Any primer
Any brass

This has worked satisfactorily in the dozen or so m-14 pattern rifles I've tried it in as well as in 6 different bolt guns that I have (do) own.....

YMMV
 
The Hornady 150gr FMJ is an excellent choice. I've reloaded 1000s of them for M1s and M14s.

I recommend that you begin with starting loads and work up in .5 gr increments watching for pressure signs in your rifle using your choice of brass and primers. The load you are quoting is max per the Hodgdon data for Varget with a 150gr bullet.

Some use Varget in the M1/M14. I don't as it is a bit too slow burning for the gas system. The MILSPEC propellant and baseline powder for 7.62 NATO ammo is IMR4895. All of IMR3031, IMR4064, H4895, W748 and BLC2 are alternatives.

Some caveats when reloading for the M1/M14;
1. Always FL resize
2. Keep brass trimmed below max OAL
3. Seat primers below flush with the case head
4. Stick to 150-168gr bullets
5.Use propellants with correct burn rate
6. Don't try to get more than 4 or 5 reloads out of a piece of brass
 
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Two excellent posts. IIRC, 168 gr is the preferred load...suggested max. Not saying that a few 180 sp wouldn't be fun, just not a steady diet, and 2950 sounds like a real pipe dream. Subtract 300 is more likely.

Google is your friend, there is excellent advice on loading for the M1A. Search for Lake City, the munitions plant(and preferred brass) , and i am pretty sure there are some excellent and specific suggested loads. Not sure if you said if the rifle is a M1A or the Norc M305. Same design, but one is a Chicom so start at the low end, find the rifles sweet spot for accuracy and function and burn some powder.
 
M14 match loads are 168 grn with 40 grns of IMR 4895 (if I'm not mistaken). I've had very good luck with this, using 168 grn Sierra Matchking HPBT.
 
notsorichguy said:
Went a different way....

I have a "pet" load for 308 that seems to shoot well in all the rifles I've tried it in. I always have some on hand.

Any 150gr pill
42.0 grains of H-4895
Any primer
Any brass

This has worked satisfactorily in the dozen or so m-14 pattern rifles I've tried it in as well as in 6 different bolt guns that I have (do) own.....

YMMV
Click to expand...

That's interesting as that is the load that produced my smallest group. Although it was with IMR not H powder. 150gr PRVI FMJ.
 
Leonard, my thought are ,46.5 gr varget is on the very hot side, do not drop that charge in and go shooting,,

Start lower and work up,,,,It's easy to batter these gas guns with heavy charges of slow burning powders and varget is one of them IMO,,
 
I haven't shot any yet. But I loaded a ladder of 165gr Hornady SST with 43.4gr of H4895. (Ladder from 42.8-43.4). It is right around an OBT node on the 18.5 barrel and the peak pressures are only 14,000 at the gas port. So it should be safe.

My books max load says 43.5 for the h4895/165 combo. Quickload looks good up to 43.4 though.
I should be shooting it saturday.
 
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I assumed that 46.5 Gr Varget was hot I was just getting some opinions on limits to these gas systems before i start.

I likely have 4065 maybe a 1lb jug left and a jug or two of 4895 somewhere.

I am only hoping to use varget because -

A. I've had great luck with it in two other 308's i own and
B. I have 3 lb's of it in the reloading room.

Primers will have to be magnum rifle primers somehow we ended up with 3000 of them and have a good 2500 left currently so i may need to just drop the charge a tad but i have never once had any inconsistancy's or problems using these primers so not really worried about them.

This isnt my first rodeo working up loads so its not like i was going to just full capacity the rounds and go lol
But i was just more wondering where people have been stopping workups due to perhaps gas system limitations more so than anything else.

This is a norinco 305 18.5".

Any 150gr pill
42.0 grains of H-4895
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Thats going to be max a 2650fps load out of a 18.5" barrel which in my thinking is a bit on the slow side but like i said perhaps thats just easier on the system(which is good). and i've found with ladder method that you can find harmonics up and down the scale its just about finding it.

Thanks for the info i now have a ballpark figure of pressures to start from which was my goal with this post.
Since the method i use takes 0.1-0.2grn increments depending on how anal you are that cuts things down for me work wise.
 
Leonard, I'm gonna suggest you take a step back and shoot her. With factory loads out of the gate and deal with reloads when you have suitable components.
Also, I would suggest a thorough reading up on reloading for the M14 family of rifles. Glen Zediker is a must read authority.
I use 4895 or 3031 , CCI #34 or CCI 200 primers. I was warned against Varget although I've read online that some guys have used it.
Reloading for these is a departure from reloading for your favorite .308 bolt gun. This is why I suggest a step back...
 
Zediker has been mentioned. I have nothing to add. :)

I do believe the go to accuracy M14 load is 41.5gr IMR4895 or H4895, CCI 200 or BR2 primer and a SMK 168gr bullet. Using milspec primers certainly isn't a bad idea, but I think if you reload correctly making sure your primers are inserted correctly, you shouldn't have slam fires.
 
45ACPKING said:
Leonard, I'm gonna suggest you take a step back and shoot her. With factory loads out of the gate and deal with reloads when you have suitable components.
Also, I would suggest a thorough reading up on reloading for the M14 family of rifles. Glen Zediker is a must read authority.
I use 4895 or 3031 , CCI #34 or CCI 200 primers. I was warned against Varget although I've read online that some guys have used it.
Reloading for these is a departure from reloading for your favorite .308 bolt gun. This is why I suggest a step back...
Click to expand...

This is exactly what i was looking for 45acpking thanks
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
There is a link for anyone looking for info also.

It covers alot of the things i was looking for.
So looks like mostly from what i have gathered.
Resize your brass every time (which i already do )
Trim your brass every time (which i already do).
fully seat your primers and - avoid remington primers as they are soft to activate - CCI are listed as more sturdy so basically avoid soft primers and seat them fully and below the rim of the case (this is to avoid slamfires).
Neck sizing - he recommends Small based dies sizing to avoid FTE's (which i already have for use for my Browning Leaver 308)

From what im reading here on powder is 4064 is on the verge of too slow for this gun and Varget is on the slow side of the burn rates and will batter/slam your action because its still building pressure as the bullet is passing the gas port.
I will add a quote here

from *reloading for the match14*
The M14 has issues with port pressure, and the only issue of influence is knowing the upper limit on burning rate, which is a 4064. I think 4064 is borderline but don’t think it will ever harm a rifle. Others purport to be right in the range but, VARGET®, for instance, is too slow despite what Hodgdon® says. Shoot some and it’s plain. It hurts the rifle. IMR® 4895, Hodgdon® 4895, Accurate Arms® 2495 are, I think, the very best choices. These three are close to the same in burning rates, but I listed them from slowest to fastest. I like Hodgdon® the best and mostly because it meters very well. It also has the more temperature resistant coating akin to VARGET™.
Click to expand...

Thankfully I do have 4895 although i cant quite remember if its H or IMR version as i bought it quite awhile ago for reloading another 308.

And, speaking of that, avoid other problems by staying in the “upper middle” range with the load. Let’s say that’s 2550 fps at 70 degrees temperature
with a 168gr bullet. That level won’t cause problems when it’s 100 degrees and it won’t suffer getting to the target if it drops to 50. It’s certainly (easily) possible to get more than 2550 fps
from a 168gr bullet, but it can beat the gun.
Click to expand...
noted.

Various 155gr bullets work well and do take some buck from the big boy. The Berger® 155gr LTB (“length tolerance bullet”) was designed for short line. This bullet
has a friendly nosecone profile which approximates that of a Sierra® 168 but jumps considerably more to the lands than a MatchKing™ loaded to the same specs
(which is to fit the magazine).
Click to expand...
This is basically exactly what i meant when i said the OAL will likely be longer in chamber then the Clip will allow for use. I've seen this Jumping in basically every clip based gun ive loaded for the only good thing about it is it pretty much controls your OAL so its hard to go wrong, the bad thing is that you loose some accuracy usually.
Either way i will be double checking everything 5-10x before i sign off on any lengths. often ive been pretty much just using the same length as factory loads of the same Grain bullet usually they just barely fit in clips anyhow.

I wont be using 155's but i will be using 150's they aren't VLD's but they will be ok. and less kick which is kind of what i was going for in this gun. Also easily relatable SST hunting rounds in the future.

From everything i've gathered in here i mostly just need New Brass now which im finding hard to find.
I stopped using once fired brass in favor of new a long time ago(unfortunatly i may have to make a exception for mil spec suply on the cheap).
 
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This isn't your Daddy's shotgun Cowboy.

Your book says 43.5 grains is max for a 165 grain bullet and you are loading to 43.4? I don't think you'll get there. This is a semi auto rifle. You guys are all failing to recognize that brass make has some bearing on pressure. Military brass is thicker and requires reduced charges. I wouldn't expect to load to the same velocities as your bolt action first because the action isn't as strong and second it isn't as efficient. Bolt guns lose nothing to cycling the action.

Years ago a friend of mine wanted to start reloading for a Browning BAR in 7mm Rem. I explained the process to him and suggested he load to about halfway up the powder range his first outing and watch for pressure signs.

He loaded 100 rounds to max and came back with a bag full of brass. Many primers were missing the remainder pierced or deformed. That rifle took a pounding and so did he. His Dad played for Green Bay and he is a big guy. He was black and blue.
 
There are many opinions about the use of Varget in the M14. Most say it's too slow, but BLC-(2) which is slower than Varget in the 308 (7.62X51) in my opinion, is universally accepted as suitable - because it was used by the military in the 308 and in the M14 (before Varget existed).
 
A lot of us were reloading for 7.62 and .308 gas guns before Varget showed up on the shelves about 20 yrs ago. Varget is a good powder, but not a miracle powder (marketing hype tells us about a new magic powder at least once a year it seems). IMR 4895 is the MILSPEC powder for the 7.62 round. Both IMR 4895 and IMR 3031 were used in military match ammo. There a saying along the lines of, "if your 7.62/.308 won't shoot well with IMR 4895, then you have a rifle problem".

OAL of loaded rounds is constrained by magazine size and functionality (sometimes you have to extract unfired rounds as well). The last thing that you want is to have a round jamming up in the lands on an M14/M1 type. It's been my experience with both .30-06 and 7.62/.308 in military rifles that the best accuracy often comes at less than top velocity. I don't think that anyone can go wrong with the Zediker advice.
 
Leonard, your posting suggests you are a young and relatively inexperienced shooter. I commend you for asking your questions and providing so much information.

Each rifle is different, so telling you what shoots best in my rifle is only of moderate use to you. Not only is your rifle very different than mine, but my powder lot number is different than yours and it is probably 20 years older than yours.

Your bullet choice is a good plinker bullet. If you want accuracy, buy a bullet that had the corer inserted from the front, not the back. Buy a HollowPoint or a Soft Point. The best cost/accuracy compromise is a flat based soft point.

Assuming you won't be plinking past 300 yards, velocity is a non issue. The only thing you will care about is function reliability and accuracy (and comfort). I suggest you start at 38 gr of Varget and load 5 rounds in 0.5gr increments up to 45 gr.

When you shoot, let the rifle cool a bit before groups. In this weather, it should cool off quickly.

Test at 100 yards with a good aiming mark. If you are using the iron sights, a 5" black rectangle makes a good aiming mark. I staple it to a big sheet of paper and then move it to various locations on the paper, to catch the groups.

IMG_0889.jpg


Look for a trend in group size, pick one and carry on.

I load ammo to 2.800", unless I am crimping into the cannalure, which I seldom do. OAL won't matter a hoot, so long as the ammo fits the magazine and does not engage the rifling. If you try match bullets, you can try to fine tune the best load with different OALs. I usually load match bullets about 20 thou off the rifling.

You comments about OAL and clips was very confusing, until I realized you were probably talking about magazines. A clip is the little gadget you load rounds into ahead of time so you can load a magazine quickly.

I load my 18" M305 for two different competitions. CQB, shot at 25 yards. I load 27gr of 4895 powder. Gun functions 100% and kicks like a BB gun. For Vintage Rifle, shot back to 300 yards, I load 42gr of 4895. I use bullets similar to yours. Accuracy is good enough for the application. If I wanted to use match bullets, I would choose 155 or the Sierra 175.

10 shots - 200 yards Vintage Rifle Match 18.5" Norinco M305, almost stock
IMG_0453.jpg
 
I'm 31 yo and have been hand-loading since i was 18.
Just because i asked questions about a platform i was not well versed in hand-loading for do not assume I am inexperienced as a shooter/hunter or hand-loader in other aspects.
I've been loading rounds for Bolts and leavers for over a decade and i employ a ladder method to good results and have done so for quite a few years.
I mentioned in my very first post i didn't expect anyone else's loads to work in my gun i just wanted a recommended PSI level starting point because i was concerned about the levels these guns can take.
I guess i could have just been more stubborn and pretended i knew everything and just started loading em up instead of inquiring first lol.

I'm glad i did ask as their is some real niche things about the platform that i didn't know or perhaps just didn't think of in the right context.
Likely nothing would have went wrong but i probably would have been abusing the gas system with loads of varget in starting to medium ranges for starters and not realized it until things started to mess up on me.

Yes your right Clip/magazine can be confusing if you don't use the same lingo/slang as i do . Its just what we have always called them where i'm from and i regularly forget to make the proper distinction to others.

And don't take this as me being snapping back as i'm not , I'm just correcting your assumption that i'm a total noob here which i am not perhaps with the M14 i am somewhat which is why i take my spoonfuls of advice from this forum how ever bitter or entitled some may come off and i just smile and be thankful i got any at all.

i only have 300x of the 150's i bought so Ill see if i can get something going off those.

But thanks for the advice on bullets Ill look for some reasonably priced batches in the future.

Im still on the hunt for decent brass anyways and at this rate its going to be a while till i find anything it seems.

Thanks alot for your reply's guys



===========================
Also
A lot of us were reloading for 7.62 and .308 gas guns before Varget showed up on the shelves about 20 yrs ago. Varget is a good powder, but not a miracle powder (marketing hype tells us about a new magic powder at least once a year it seems). IMR 4895 is the MILSPEC powder for the 7.62 round. Both IMR 4895 and IMR 3031 were used in military match ammo. There a saying along the lines of, "if your 7.62/.308 won't shoot well with IMR 4895, then you have a rifle problem".

OAL of loaded rounds is constrained by magazine size and functionality (sometimes you have to extract unfired rounds as well). The last thing that you want is to have a round jamming up in the lands on an M14/M1 type. It's been my experience with both .30-06 and 7.62/.308 in military rifles that the best accuracy often comes at less than top velocity. I don't think that anyone can go wrong with the Zediker advice.
Click to expand...

Yea thats what i figured with the OAL of the MAGAZINE/CLIP OAL being the limiting factor.
If i remember I probably have IMR 4895 as i keep thinking purple can.
I havent used the stuff nore 4065 in years and years since varget became the go too powder for my 243 and 308's , I just found it far more consistent than either of those and more consistent than 4350 (in the 243) and i could often use less grains of powder to the same effect.
But i have no objections to staying in Milspec with 4895 instead just means more powder for my other guns.

as for
It's been my experience with both .30-06 and 7.62/.308 in military rifles that the best accuracy often comes at less than top velocity.
Click to expand...
same but it seems with what I've read here and other places the charges are going to be a fair bit below that.
 
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Your grammar and spelling make you seem at least to be younger than 31 yo. Hand loading is not a task to be taken lightly and while I'll confess I'm not familiar with the ladder system most of us work from low to high observing signs of high pressure and then ask ourselves just how fast we want to go. Most of the loading data I used in the past was obtained using a Universal receiver. I would put absolutely no faith in pressures that are given in loading manuals as they pertain to your rifle. Powder charge is one of several things that influence pressure.

Heisenberg
 
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