The Winchester 1890 came in .22 Short, .22 Long, .22 Long Rifle and .22 Winchester Rimfire (WRF). The .22 WRF caliber would make the gun an antique if built before 1898. I have heard of CCI making runs of .22 WRF, it's listed on their site. I have also considered "wildcatting" a .22 mag down.
Anyone know the year the Winchester 1890 came in .22 WRF?
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I think you would be walking an extremely fine line in saying the gun is an antique. SOR 98-464 says guns capable of discharging 22 short etc. The point being that a 22 WRF is capable of discharging those shells, unless I am mistaken. It would be like saying that a gun chambered for 22 long rifle is not capable of discharging 22 shorts.
cheers mooncoon
The .22 WRF is basically a short .22MAG (but longer than a .22LR). The bullet sits inside the case, which is only a thousandth or two smaller that that of a .22MAG. It would be exactly the same as discharging .22LR etc in a .22MAG, which is a dumb idea.
These wiki pages have specs. You can see how the .22WRF is alot closer to the .22MAG than .22lr, it's basically 0.100" shorter. You can fire .22WRF in a .22MAG but not the other way round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Rimfire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Magnum_Rimfire
The antique regulations only list guns chambered for .22 Short, .22 Long & .22LR. .22WRF is neither of those.
The point that I am trying to make is that you can chamber a 22 long rifle in a 22 mag and that the way the law is written, I think that means that an antique chambered in 22 wrf or 22 mag would require registration as a modern gun
cheers mooncoon
The Model 1890 and the .22WRF were introduced as a pair.
The WRF casing is enough larger in diameter that regular 22LR would often split when fired in the WRF chamber.
The ammo was made in Canada by CIL up until the takeover by IVI in 1968, at which point it was delisted and has not be available here since then. IVI delisted a whole bunch of old RF calibres at that time, including .22BB, .22CB, .22 Shot, .25RF, .25 Stevens, .32 Short, .32 Long, .38 Short, .38 Long. Personally, I will never forgive them for delisting the .25 Sevens: it works so nicely in my Cooey Canuck!
The .22WRF ammo was much more expensive than rgular .22RF stuff, enough so that sales of the rifles, after a good start, fell off rapidly. The 1890 Model was revamped for regular .22LR ammo and became the Model 1906. They then made a zillion more rifles.
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The WRF casing is enough larger in diameter that regular 22LR would often split when fired in the WRF chamber.
The ammo was made in Canada by CIL up until the takeover by IVI in 1968, at which point it was delisted and has not be available here since then. IVI delisted a whole bunch of old RF calibres at that time, including .22BB, .22CB, .22 Shot, .25RF, .25 Stevens, .32 Short, .32 Long, .38 Short, .38 Long. Personally, I will never forgive them for delisting the .25 Sevens: it works so nicely in my Cooey Canuck!
The .22WRF ammo was much more expensive than rgular .22RF stuff, enough so that sales of the rifles, after a good start, fell off rapidly. The 1890 Model was revamped for regular .22LR ammo and became the Model 1906. They then made a zillion more rifles.
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Excellent posts! Does anyone have a ruling on .22 WRF from the CFC yet? An antique letter, with an FRT on it?
Saying you could chamber .22 short/long in .22 WRF is like saying you could chamber .32 S&W (also prohib) in an 8mm lebel, or a host of similar cartridges in other guns. You could also probably detonate .38 special in a .41 long colt, but that's what you would be doing. The bullet would chamber and go off, and the results would be unpleasant at best. Again, discouraged.
The legal line would be something like, "The gun isn't chambered specifically for that cartridge and using the prohibited .22 cartridge is both injurious and highly discouraged. There are numerous references available." 10 minutes on this site or the same time on google should surface a load of "don't try this at home" posts from books and experts as is usually required.
I don't think I would want to start out with my "you could chamber 38, 32, etc. and bad things would happen", though, since the next thing you know two dozen more of our favorite antique models could become prohibited.
Saying you could chamber .22 short/long in .22 WRF is like saying you could chamber .32 S&W (also prohib) in an 8mm lebel, or a host of similar cartridges in other guns. You could also probably detonate .38 special in a .41 long colt, but that's what you would be doing. The bullet would chamber and go off, and the results would be unpleasant at best. Again, discouraged.
The legal line would be something like, "The gun isn't chambered specifically for that cartridge and using the prohibited .22 cartridge is both injurious and highly discouraged. There are numerous references available." 10 minutes on this site or the same time on google should surface a load of "don't try this at home" posts from books and experts as is usually required.
I don't think I would want to start out with my "you could chamber 38, 32, etc. and bad things would happen", though, since the next thing you know two dozen more of our favorite antique models could become prohibited.
Not quite the same as the 38/41 example because in the case of the WRF, you can fire the shell (and split it) but the bore should allow moderately accurate shooting vs firing a slug which is .040" or more undersize. Results unpleasant at best is also questionable because I am sure that I used to fire 22 long rifle shells out of a 22 WRF although I don't recall splitting. I also used to fire 22 long rifle shells out of a 22 auto (cartridge) rifle and while they did split, they also shot reasonably accurately as I recall and certainly without unpleasant results.
cheers mooncoon
Not what we can get away with but what we can get a letter for...
Nope! Not looking to "get away with" anything! We want to stay on the right side, and I was only asking if there are any FRT's or antique letters out there for .22 WRF. I've asked the question elsewhere as well, and will post whatever I learn.
The 'Coon's concern is valid: you CAN put a .22 lr in a .22 magnum / .22 WRF and fire it. Some split and spew hot gas, some don't. It's just the wrong ammunition for the caliber. Not recommended anywhere, I'm just pointing out that people do stupid s##t, yes you could do all sorts of things, but we're looking for what's lawful. If you got caught shooting .22lr from an antique .22 wrf (for which there is NO shortage of ammo, Winchester makes it too, $10 a box) then you should suffer.
Looking for legal, not loopholes. I'm not looking to make up my mind, since this isn't about what's logical or smart, my question was, what's Legal, with examples to prove same.
Nope! Not looking to "get away with" anything! We want to stay on the right side, and I was only asking if there are any FRT's or antique letters out there for .22 WRF. I've asked the question elsewhere as well, and will post whatever I learn.
The 'Coon's concern is valid: you CAN put a .22 lr in a .22 magnum / .22 WRF and fire it. Some split and spew hot gas, some don't. It's just the wrong ammunition for the caliber. Not recommended anywhere, I'm just pointing out that people do stupid s##t, yes you could do all sorts of things, but we're looking for what's lawful. If you got caught shooting .22lr from an antique .22 wrf (for which there is NO shortage of ammo, Winchester makes it too, $10 a box) then you should suffer.
Looking for legal, not loopholes. I'm not looking to make up my mind, since this isn't about what's logical or smart, my question was, what's Legal, with examples to prove same.
The point is that it is not clear just how different two cartridge have to be to be considered different. Suppose for example that the law said capable of discharging 22 shorts. A gun chambered for 22 long rifle is capable of discharging 22 shorts and would be caught under the rule. The 22 WRF is somewhat similar but not quite. It is capable of discharging the shorter shells, the bore I think is the same or similar dimension and while less accurate because of muzzle jump can discharge the 22 long rifle shells more or less accurately. The only issue then is the shell and chamber diameter. The WRF is .020" larger in diameter than modern 22 long rifle shells. (just measured one) but at the same time some of the old copper 22 shells appear to be that diameter also. Hopefully that is enough different that the cartridge would be considered a different chambering and not capable. The 22 magnum is quite a bit larger yet.
It still comes down to a tempest in a teapot relative to handguns because in practical terms the wrf is unavailable and the 22 magnum I think, too powerful for most of the rimfire guns one might consider converting.
cheers mooncoon
It still comes down to a tempest in a teapot relative to handguns because in practical terms the wrf is unavailable and the 22 magnum I think, too powerful for most of the rimfire guns one might consider converting.
cheers mooncoon
Also, I don't know if anyone made a .22WRF in a single-shot; the 1890 is definitely a repeater.
Lots of 1890s were shot a LOT with regular .22RF ammo, quite enough that the rifles are actually more common with the front of the chamber eaten away. Run .22WRF in them and they bulge the casing at the front end and you have a helluvva time getting it out.
The extra pennies for the .22WRF ammo, in a time of very few pennies, kept the WRF pretty much as a rich guy's toy. Ammo was ALWAYS more expensive, hence the slowdown in sales once the people who could afford to shoot one had their rifles. Folks who liked the rifles but didn't want to spend the extra money on ammo bought second-hand rifles or wrecked the ones they had (slowly, one round at a time) until the 1906 hit the market. Last 1897 s/n was 54905, but it's still a repeater. They enjoyed somewhat of a vogue up to about the end of the First War, but then tapered off; there were 11 made in 1938, which is not enough to keep a whole factory running.
Nice little rifles.
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Lots of 1890s were shot a LOT with regular .22RF ammo, quite enough that the rifles are actually more common with the front of the chamber eaten away. Run .22WRF in them and they bulge the casing at the front end and you have a helluvva time getting it out.
The extra pennies for the .22WRF ammo, in a time of very few pennies, kept the WRF pretty much as a rich guy's toy. Ammo was ALWAYS more expensive, hence the slowdown in sales once the people who could afford to shoot one had their rifles. Folks who liked the rifles but didn't want to spend the extra money on ammo bought second-hand rifles or wrecked the ones they had (slowly, one round at a time) until the 1906 hit the market. Last 1897 s/n was 54905, but it's still a repeater. They enjoyed somewhat of a vogue up to about the end of the First War, but then tapered off; there were 11 made in 1938, which is not enough to keep a whole factory running.
Nice little rifles.
.
Does anyone know what years the 2nd & 3rd models came out?
ETA: Looks like the second models came out in late 1892 and were takedowns at serial number 15552 (still antique) and third in late 1907 according to this website:
http://aaa-webs.com/aaa/webs/homestead/courses/1890/1890-history.htm
ETA: Looks like the second models came out in late 1892 and were takedowns at serial number 15552 (still antique) and third in late 1907 according to this website:
http://aaa-webs.com/aaa/webs/homestead/courses/1890/1890-history.htm
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