Anyone Shooting Hogdon Titegroup and AIMS bullets

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kgwalsh12

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Hello Everyone,

I have a question I was hoping someone could shed some light on for me.

I was at the range yesterday using my Beta Chrony and I think I am getting some erroneous results. I have been firing the rounds about 2 to 4 inches above the sensors.

I am using Hogdon Titegroup power and loading with 4.7 grains, my bullets are the AIMS 185 gr 40 cal which end up being anywhere from 185 to 190gr in reality and my O.A.L is around 1.160.

The results I was getting were 1196 fps, which is way over the load data.

Does anyone think this is an expected result or is my Chrony screwed or I am not using it correctly?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I am using an STI Edge. I am using the Lyman manual, but no data for 185 gr bullets and for Titegroup powder (strange).

I am trying to hit major at 180 power factor and was hoping to reduce the recoil, by dropping the powder, increase/decrease OAL, etc

I guess I am just trying to get a baseline to see what I am shooting now in my reloads and try to work backwards.
 
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Loading data is based on controlled lab testing, and you'll almost never get the same results in the field. Your chrony is probably correct. Start from the minimum load from the tables and work your way up .1 grain at a time until you get the results over the chrony that you're after.
 
To add to the unknown variables I would ask what are you trying to achieve? If it is a .40cal are you looking for a load for IPSC Major or Minor?

Take Care

Bob
 
Reply to the above messages

I am using an STI Edge. I am using the Lyman manual, but no data for 185 gr bullets and for Titegroup powder (strange).

I am trying to hit major at 180 power factor and was hoping to reduce the recoil, by dropping the powder, increase/decrease OAL, etc

I guess I am just trying to get a baseline to see what I am shooting now in my reloads and try to work backwards.
 
kgwalsh12 said:
Hello Everyone,

I have a question I was hoping someone could shed some light on for me.

I was at the range yesterday using my Beta Chrony and I think I am getting some erroneous results. I have been firing the rounds about 2 to 4 inches above the sensors.

I am using Hogdon Titegroup power and loading with 4.7 grains, my bullets are the AIMS 185 gr 40 cal which end up being anywhere from 185 to 190gr in reality and my O.A.L is around 1.160.

The results I was getting were 1196 fps, which is way over the load data.

Does anyone think this is an expected result or is my Chrony screwed or I am not using it correctly?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I am using an STI Edge. I am using the Lyman manual, but no data for 185 gr bullets and for Titegroup powder (strange).

I am trying to hit major at 180 power factor and was hoping to reduce the recoil, by dropping the powder, increase/decrease OAL, etc

I guess I am just trying to get a baseline to see what I am shooting now in my reloads and try to work backwards.
Click to expand...

I am loading same bullets and same powder and my OAL is 1.160-165.
PF is 173-174 with 4.7-8gr of TG.
I use Dillon dies.
 
Thanks PeterPan, it appears you have exact same setup as I do. So I am wondering if I have my Chrony too close and I am getting erroneous readings.
The 173-174 PF is a little low, so I will probably want to Increase the powder, or reduce my OAL.
 
You can get the data from Hogdon's website, but as I mentioned, it's only a starting place. I run my chrony at 15 feet. Trust your chrono until proved otherwise and adjust the load down until you're in the 940-950fps range. (~175pf) Every load and every gun are different.
 
Hi there... While i have not been reloading for long (2 years).. here are a few things that i have learned..

Not every barrel is equal... If you shoot the same load in a different barrel you can get different velocities depending on the efficiency of your barrel. This is why when they chrony your loads at an IPSC match they use your gun!

Also powder lots vary from batch to batch.. so you will also see variation in this..

Not all scales are created equal!!! Even if you are use what is supposed to be 4.7 grains and another person uses 4.7 grains ... they may not be exactly the same unless the scales are calibrated the same. To get reliable readings you need a calibration weight which generally costs too much to make it worth it.. I know i use one for work and have both a 100 gram and 1000 gram weight for calibrating my scales at work. These are made in germany and you dont want to know what i paid for them.

All these things add up to give you variation in the numbers you get from a text book number to an actual number.

In addition a chrony is a fairly accurate instrument because it is so simple. Just a timer. There are cases where they can be affect by indoor lights but if you were using yours outdoors then i would tend to believe it over what you expect...

Right now your PF is 185 x 1196/1000 = 221.

For IPSC major you only need 170 not 180. There for you can reduce your powder quite a bit.

Load up 5 rounds at a number of different reduced powder levels.

Maybe start at 3.5 grs and work up in 10% increments (say .3 or .2 grain steps) .. that way you will find your correct powder and powerfactor load. You obviously dont need to go to 4.7 grains of tight group.

A final note here.. When you are getting your loads chronied.. you give the person the weight of the bullet you purchased... Aim makes a 185 grain bullet.. That is what you use for the calculation.. even though in my experience their bullets vary a great deal in the actual weight.. (some higher and some lower). Its also part of the variation we see in velocity.

Good luck .. if you have any other questions you can PM me..

RDG
 
First: Make sure your oal is correct in your gun. If you are contacting the rifling you will get pressure spikes, which would affect velocity.
Second: make sure you are not standing too close to the chrono and reading the gas column. You may just have a tight chamber though.
Third: once you are confident you have solid base-line numbers, use this formula to extrapolate the charge you will need to make your desired power factor.

Target PF/actual PF X charge weight in grains.
So if the numbers above are accurate in your gun, it will look like this:
185/180 X 4.7 = 4.57 (4.5 to be safe).

Hope this helps
 
rdgietz said:
Not all scales are created equal!!!
Click to expand...
Excellent point. All you can really expect from most scales is that they are repeatable (not necessarily accurate, but always the same). btw, the electronic ones aren't any more accurate than the beam type. You may not be throwing the powder weight that you think. That's where load development over the chrono comes in.
 
Oal

kgwalsh12 said:
Thanks PeterPan, it appears you have exact same setup as I do. So I am wondering if I have my Chrony too close and I am getting erroneous readings.
The 173-174 PF is a little low, so I will probably want to Increase the powder, or reduce my OAL.
Click to expand...

I would not reduce your OAL.. I think you are running at a standard OAL for .40 S&W. If you decrease it too much it may increase your chamber pressures to dangerous levels and the results could be catastrophic... and you dont want that. If anything i would try and increase your OAL so your bullet is closer to the rifleing and your gun still feeds well. I load my Tanfoglio Limited Custom II (40 S&W) to 1.199 - 1.200 ". It appears to me to be a more accurate load and my mags can handle the longer bullets.



Running at 173 to 174 PF is not low but does not give you much of a cushion when you are at a match where chrony your rounds. I normally load to 175 but for matches that chrony i load an extra 1/10 of a grain just to make sure.. You dont want to shoot an entire match and at the end find out that your powder measure is throwing a low charge and you dont make Major power factor. Not as bad for Standard class because you still have Minor PF but it dramatically affects your score.

Just 2 cents

RDG
 
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kgwalsh12,
my PF was checked at Area6 in Georgia at PF172.6
They have pulled really light bullet like for AIM, it was 185.3, most of them run around 187 in my batch.
I have used nickel plated brass and my crimp is pretty generous.
I use SVI barrel.
Like I have mentioned before load is 4.7-4.8, and OAL is set at 1.165".

Try to move your Chrony to at least 3m distance, 15ft is bit stretching, but whatever works. At the match, chrony is usually set at 2-3m

Good Luck
 
Good Point

relliott said:
First: Make sure your oal is correct in your gun. If you are contacting the rifling you will get pressure spikes, which would affect velocity.
Second: make sure you are not standing too close to the chrono and reading the gas column. You may just have a tight chamber though.
Third: once you are confident you have solid base-line numbers, use this formula to extrapolate the charge you will need to make your desired power factor.

Target PF/actual PF X charge weight in grains.
So if the numbers above are accurate in your gun, it will look like this:
185/180 X 4.7 = 4.57 (4.5 to be safe).

Hope this helps
Click to expand...

I agree with this poster!.. you have to make sure your bullets do not touch the rifleing. The 40 S&W head spaces on the casing. When i am developing a load with a new OAL i remove my barrel and then test chamber the new round. The bullet should headspace on the case and be able to easily rotated in the chamber to ensure it is not touching the rifleing. If you cannot rotate the bullet easily you need to move the OAL to a shorter measurement and try again.

Good luck with your load development.

RDG
 
STI Edge has pretty generous head space. When I used to shoot Edge, my first loads were at 1.19-1.2, however I agree it is a good idea to check head space.
 
PeterPan said:
15ft is bit stretching
Click to expand...
I check at that distance to make sure that the chrono is only seeing the bullet and nothing else. It also gives me a small fudge factor for those match chronos set closer.

Another way to determine max COL is to set a bullet intentionally long in a fired case (you can do this with your fingers) chamber it and measure. Subtract a few thousands for your max with that bullet.
 
Some chronos might also be affected by how much light is getting to the screens from the sun or overhead lights, depending on where you are trying it.
 
I've used Titegroup and Aim bullets, and shot through several different chronographs. I've found that with the 180 grain bullets I need about 5.0grains of powder to make 177 PF, approx. 980 ft/sec. This is loaded to 1.160" OAL and shot through my CZ Tactical Sport.

I find it difficult to believe that 185 grain bullets with 4.7 grain of powder would get you such high velocities. You're shooting heavier bullets with less powder, and getting over 200 ft/sec more then me :eek::confused:.

As someone else suggested, move your chrony away from you a few more feet, to rule out muzzle blast affecting the results. If you still get the same results, I would try to get another chrony to compare against.

I'm not saying it couldn't be accurate, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me.
 
i took a quick look at his numbers and i think the problem is that he used FMJ loading data rather then lead loading date. since he is suing a plated bullet he should be looking at a lead load data. anytime i have compared lead to FMJ's the FMJ's need more powder for the same velocity per weight. my 2 cents worth.
 
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