Apc .223 & others

Dubpaw

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Hey folks,

I'm cruising through a bunch of threads...but aside from cost what differentiates a B&T Apc .223 vs a M&P 15?

I'm in search of a black rifle for three gun after parting ways with my tar 21. It would have to be form 6 compliant and a non "sbr" for use in the USA.

I've considered an x95..but some of the reviews have me concerned.
 
Hey folks,

I'm cruising through a bunch of threads...but aside from cost what differentiates a B&T Apc .223 vs a M&P 15?

I'm in search of a black rifle for three gun after parting ways with my tar 21. It would have to be form 6 compliant and a non "sbr" for use in the USA.

I've considered an x95..but some of the reviews have me concerned.

well... many things
First depends if you are considering the non restricted APC 223 or the restricted APC223. If you are considering the non restricted APC 223 here is a good list
APC 223 is Non restricted, M&P 15 is Restricted due to being an AR15:
APC 223 has a 18.5 inch barrel, M&P 15 16 inch barrel
APC 223 is a piston system, M&P 15 is a DI system
APC 223 has one of the smoothest action I've ever experienced in a rifle, M&P 15 well it's a budget AR, expect budget AR action.
APC 223 has a Lothar Walther Barrel, which has some pretty crazy amazing accuracy, M&P 15 does not
APC 223 weighs close to 9 pounds
APC 223 has a horrible stock that doesnt really make good use of the height of current optics and scopes
APC 223 is 3600$, M&P 15 is 700$
APC 223 is entirely made in Switzerland, so I am not sure you can export it to the USA temporarily on a form 6, M&P 15 made in the USA so no problem for form 6
 
Ostensibly Swiss quality, but I'd have a hard time justifying the $2500 premium.

If I were you, I'd look at a midrange AR (~$1500) and spend the rest on ammo. The APC is a heavy rifle for 3-gun. If you were insistent on a NR 3-gun option, I'd look at either an XCR-L keymod or an light barrel NR ACR before an APC.

Having owned a Tavor and an X95, I honestly preferred the Tavor. The X95 isn't a clear upgrade IMO.
 
I'll have to reach out to the atf regarding the apc legal import status. Our non restricted one would be the only option I see available...as barrels to my understanding must be at or greater than 16" and OAL cannot be below 26".

That was my thought anpaul... I would like to stay NR if possible. I'll check out the XCR. Shame the bren isn't available yet here.

Thanks
 
I'll have to reach out to the atf regarding the apc legal import status. Our non restricted one would be the only option I see available...as barrels to my understanding must be at or greater than 16" and OAL cannot be below 26".

That was my thought anpaul... I would like to stay NR if possible. I'll check out the XCR. Shame the bren isn't available yet here.

Thanks

It has more to do with the manufacture country of origin, not all firearms can be temporarily imported into the USA regardless of the barrel length SBR thingy.
 
Well, to be honest - APC you can shoot outside "approved ranges". M&P - no so much. For everything else there is a Mastercard.
 
There is a certain feeling out of shooting a non restricted
It feels something among the likes of saying F followed by a U followed by a C (well you get the picture) followed by YOU and by RCM (well you get the picture) I'm tired of infractions

Is that worth the premium price? Yes I believe it is, plus why not hide a few random things in a few random walls when things turn badly for us
 
Every time I look at my BMW i think I could've been driving Dodge Neon and saved $80K.

That's true, plus the pos Dodge comes with a better warranty, uses less fuel, and you can purchase three or four of them for the price of one nice BMW. I learned a long time ago that vehicles are a stupid place to spend big money unless you have big money and don't care how much it costs. They depreciate from the second you buy them to the second you sell them and no amount of money you spend on intakes or exhaust systems makes them worth any more.
Firearms on the other hand typically seem to be a better investment and I don't usually lose much money when I sell them. Spending more up front will typically (not always) result in more smiles while shooting and less frustration along with a higher demand at sale time.

When it comes to simply buying a firearm for 3-gun though noting beats an AR, there is nothing available to us that can touch it in quality for the price, weight, and I doubt that anyone could prove that in civilian hands firing in semi auto that the direct impingement system in a standard AR is less reliable than a piston system. You would have to go through a heck of a lot of ammo a day in order to choke either rifle if they are both of similar quality other than the piston vs DI system. They are both capable of firing more than most people could run through their rifle in a day without having issues.
Now, if you try to compare a cheap sub $1000 DI AR to a high end piston rifle like an HK then yes the piston rifle will be more reliable but all things being equal other than the gas system I don't know if there is much advantage to the average person.
My DI rifles have always performed well and the couple PWS piston driven AR's I've owned worked just as well. The difference is that the piston rifles exhaust gas into the forend which is a pain to clean (if you decide to clean it off) and the DI rifle exhausts through the BCG which is pretty easy to clean if you don't let it get too thick.


"How many extra courses or 1000s of rounds can you shoot if you buy the M&P?"

Once you pimp it out...not much haha


The trick is to resist the urge to pimp it out until after you've done a couple courses and actually learned to shoot it and learned what works and what doesn't work for you. I find that way too often guys are buying their first AR and they're buying the cheapest one they can find and then buy a free floated forend, new grip, BAD lever, ambi mag release, etc... and they haven't even shot it yet. Most don't realize that the AR is and always has been ambidextrous, all the controls can be used with either hand and if held correctly the shooter will not eat any brass regardless of which shoulder it is fired from.
My advice to all people new to the AR is to put 1000 rounds through it then start changing things out. Shoot as many other AR's as you can and note what feels good about the other rifles and what does not. Change things that will make it more accurate, easier to control, and things that will make you faster and smoother behind it. Don't just install brand XYZ forend just because Racer-X says it's the best, buy what works with your shooting style and preferred shooting discipline, Lots of guys will tell you the Magpul PRS stock is the best but unless you're shooting your rifle primarily from sandbags Mr 3-gun probably won't feel the same way about it.

Keep it light and put rounds downrange, nothing will improve a persons shooting more than simply putting ammo through the rifle.
 
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There is a certain sense of satisfaction one feels when adding superficial parts to a rifle; it achieves that aesthetic that the user intended. Kind of tacky when you do that to a car, but beautiful on a rifle.
 
if you have the money or you have to eat nothing Kraft dinner for 6 months, just buy what you want, you can always sell it if you don't like it, it's a toy, in the end the only person's opinion is the guy in the mirror holding the rifle in nothing but his underwear look back at you.
 
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