AR-10 7.62mm Project Leonidas Rifle

I agree about not seeing the point of a 7.62 (.308) with a barrel under 18". That being said a .308 AR with an 18 inch barrel is perfect for law enforcement. Where the stupid idea of "injuring" the enemy doesn't come into play. You're trying to stop them as fast as possible. The .308 is more effective for that that the .223 (5.56). The RCMP used to use 22-250 for their rifles and switched to .308 for this very reason.
Dump the shotguns in the Police cars and put in a .308 AR carbine and I think you'd have the best solution.
 
As for a short rifle/carbine instead of a shotgun in RCMP cruisers, I think that the tactical role of most police officers would be better served with something shooting more politically correct ammo than.308 Win [ read something with less overpenetration].

I know one ex-RCMP sniper who preferred .22-250 over .308 for that very reason. He was a pretty good shot, and wasn't too worried about misses, but he definitely was worried about overpenetration.

In fact he traded me a crate of RCMP issue .308 Win Ranger "for police use only" 168 Gr hp ammo that he would never shoot. As a side note, if you can get some of this ammo, it was absolutely the most accurate [ on average ] through several M-14 rifles. It was what I used for testing target M-14 rifles, back when I used to build such oxymorons.

7.62 Russian comes to mind agin, or some of the new "AR-15 ON STEROIDS" big bore cartridges. Short range, massive stopping power, scalable penetration, and faster more accurate repeat shots at medium distances, where the shotgun simply can't reach.

PS: if you want some fun, take some balloons out to the 100 yd range and shoot at them with various shotgun loads. Hitting a big balloon at 100 yds with buck is more of a gamble than a certainty. Birdshot will reliably prick the balloon enough to deflate it, but the stopping power of a few birdshot at 100yds is negligable. And the 100 yd balloons take a lonnnnng time before your bird shot reaches them.

Yep, I think a short carbine or "assault" rifle makes sense instead of the shotgun in many situations, but for most non-specialised tactical roles, the .308 Win is just overkill.
LAZ 1
 
Some good points Lazerus2000.

Frankly you're right the .223 would work well . If more is needed there is always the 6.5 Grendel. Plus in retrospect the .308 AR-10s are bigger and heavier than the AR-15 which comes into play. Sometimes I forget abot stuff like that :).

On a side note the duty ammo for the .308 that the average guy gets is the 155 grain Winchester. It's not an accuracy demon. When you're ERT I guess they give you all of the best stuff. It's definately way ahead of the General duty officers. example: sigs instead of S&W 5946, C7 instead of Winchester Model 70bolt action, Mp5 instead of Remington wingmaster 870 shotgun. I guess it stands to reason that the ammo is better too.
 
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You guys are missing the entire point of this gun -- GT hit part of it -- but the unit of issue this is designed for is not limited by the Hague Convention and thus the 155gr TSWG OTM round that is issued.

Its still an AR10 and neither it nor the SR-25 KAC guns do well in a high rounds count -- they work well for a DM -- but will not stand up to "assault rifle" type usage for long.

FWIW the 12" Hk417 is still having teething issues too -- so a AR style piston gun is not the panacae -- look to the 11 and 13" DSAW OSW FAL's.
 
The problem with the 22-250 for police use was the fact that the .308 is much more likely to completely stop the person on the first shot. Which with a bolt action is most likely your only shot. A lights out reaction is very important for police. Hollow points, rapidly expanding ammo etc are used to avoid over penetration issues. As a sniper on an ERT team I would still go with the .308. Which they have done

Kevin I've already read a bunch of different articles on the net that covered the AR-10 as a DM weapon. I completely agree that the AR-10 is a good DM weapon. I just didn't think it needed to be restated, since it can't really be argued anyways :)

I was thinking for the General duty police officer. Now this can be argued.

Since the .308 is already used by DM's on the watch and lets face it chance are there would only be one AR on a watch which would go to the DM. Currenlty there are .308 bolt action Winchesters available. For this role.

After thinking it over with the prevously posted pros/cons. I think as a weapon for everyone on the watch instead of the shotgun the .223 would be better. Unfortunately there is no way the RCMP would give a DM a different weapon, unless you were on ERT. Then sure you get all the good stuff. The finances just aren't there for General duty. Frankly even getting a AR carbine of any calibre is a pipe dream.

So in my perfect world the shotgun would be replaced by the .223 AR and the DM on the watch would have the .308 bolt action rifle replaced with an AR-10. There you go. Now I'll just wish for that Ferrari PC while I'm at it.

Sorry that my previous posts were confusing. I blame the flu and cold medicine on that. :)
 
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I realize this is a very old post, but some very good comments have been made here, many of which I beleive are worth revisiting.

There has been some evevolution in this area, with some of those finding that the need for a stronger, heavier hitting cartrige is requried, but in a manuoverabel package.

It is my understanding that while the 7.62x39 was condisidered, there were several issues, with the one that springs to mind is with getting proper feeding in un-neutered AR style mags.

Enter the 6.8 SPC in a 16.1" M4 carbine configuration. This particular package has 80% the puch of the 308/7.62 Nato, with only 20% more recoil than 223/5.56.

Initial reports have been favorable, and I belive in time to come you will see this cartridge fill the gap between the 223 & 308.

Just my 2 cents

YMMV

regards

AbH
 
I shot one last month? or two months ago.. it was a very nice gun.... all the talk about what roles it fills is way over my head though...
 
Much as I love the OLD AR 10 rifles and also love 7.62 NATO/.308 Win,
I think ABH has a good point ...
there may be several of the newer AR 15 caliber conversions that could do a good job without going to the larger, heavier rifles designed for the powerful ?overkill? of 7.62 NATO??

I am considering building another AR15 top end in a bigger caliber.
Candidates would be:
- .300 Whisper
[ with two types of loads
- 125 Gr SP @ approx 2450 fps aka .30 Russian duplicate load
and 180/200/230 gr @ approx 1400 - 1800 fps ]

- 6.8 SPC

- 6.5 Grendel

any experience from a CANADIAN perspective on availablity of barrels, bolts, loaded ammo, and reloading components would be greatly appreciated.

I know a lot of fun stuff is available for these calibers in the US,
but who is shooting these calibers this side of the border, and what would they recommend??


LAZ 1
 
Laz:

If I may wade in here. Many know that I really don't step forward with out doing a goodly amount of research. I researched both the 6.5 Grendell, and the 6.8 SPC. If I am really honest, when I started the race, I was betting on the Grendell, however in the end, the 6.8 SPC won out.

Before we start, we may want to look at the "design purpose" behind each cartridge. The 6.5 Grendell was born out of the desire to have a mid to long range "bench rest" accuracy capable cartridge, out of an AR platform.

The 6.8 SPC, according to my research, was a grass roots movement, at troop level, to have a cartridge that was more effective at hard target penetration, yet have all the benefits of handling that are associated with M4 style platform.

So in essence we have here the desire for a Tac-Driver, and a Hammer, out of the AR platform.

With pedigree out of the way, we can not turn to the more practical aspects of actually shooting these rifles and carbines. When shooting as a civilian, one needs to have a really hard look at the supply chain. As far as I know, there is little to no commercial support for the 6.5 Grendell IN CANADA. The owner of the Cartridge, I believe Alexander Arms (correct me if I am incorrect here) has what would be considered a strangle hold on the cartridge. They developed it, and in my understanding, are the sole source for cartridge specs, carbine parts, and brass. I understand that the owner (his name escapes me now) Is incredibly helpful, and will share the wealth of his knowledge. He really wants his cartridge to succeed. Now if your south of the 49th, this is great, however Canada is not. As a result, You have to be a very dedicated individual to chase this one down. and make it happen. There are some on this CGN board that have, and I understand that they have done so with great success.

The 6.8 SPC is another matter all together. There is actually Factory ammo available for this one, and for the re-loader, (like me) components are much easier to come buy. Just so we are clear, the 6.8 spc uses .277 diameter bullets that range from about 90 grains on the light end, to 115 grains on the heavy end for AR use. There are heavier bullets available, but they are not meant for the AR platform.

Further there is some very good commercial support for this caliber. In ammo, any deal that deals with Remington ammo should be able to order it in for you. For Rifles, Carbines, and other build components, one need look no farther than our own Arms East.

For mags, while the 5/25 profile is more or less unavailable these days (this is the same as a 5.56 Nato 5/30 profile) Questar has a large supply that is currently available from C-procudts on the 5/20 profile.

Before any one asks, there will not be any P-mag's for the 6.8 cartridge. I have had lengthy discussion with Justin over a Magpul Technical, and the 6.8 is a fatter cartridge (based on the 30 Rem) and there is simply no room for the thickness required for a polymer mag to still be durable, and be able to feed the cartridge at the same time. So the 6.8 is strictly a "metal mag" cartridge. The up side of this however is that MOST 6.8 spc mags are made out of stainless, which in my opinion has some real advantages.

And before you ask, yes I do own a 6.8 SPC carbine, however as most you know, Im never satisfied buying a factory carbine or rifle. I started with a stag upper from the use market, replaced ever part on it except the barrel, then ordered a complete lower marked in 6.8 SPC from Arms East, and tailored it to my own personal tastes. I am currently in load development phase, so I can not honestly give an opinion as to how it shoots, however, the work to-date shows some very good promise. My carbine looks like this:

Stag-68-fde-s-01.jpg


Stag-68-fde-s-04.jpg


I hope this helps, and if I can, I will answer any further questions you might have to the best of my ability.

regards and all the best

AbH
 
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