AR-15 M4 recommendations

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ddekeyser

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Sarnia, ON
Looking at finally getting into black rifles. Unsure of 5.56 or 7.62.
Big question is how reliable are the cheaper knock offs or Norincos?
trying to weigh out the cost-benefit ratio of the cheap ones vs say a Colt or Bushmaster.
Would be using cheap/bulk ammo.
 
Its not really that much more expensive to get a colt, really. Cut the beer and nachos for two to 3 months and voila you just saved enough money for a colt over a norc and it'll help your diet.
 
I'm seeing anywhere from $1200 to $1600 before tax for Colts. Can't find many used, and the ones I find, are almost new price. Norinco's I'm finding for $700 to $950 new, or $400 to $600 used. So $500 to $1400 is more than a little, to me anyway. Cut the beer and nachos out a long time ago.
 
Heard about them awhile ago and had forgotten. Thanks for bringing it back up. Any particular reason you would pick that model over other Stags? I come from the hunting world, and mostly archery, so don't know a whole lot about black rifles. Thanks for any help
 
ddekeyser said:
Looking at finally getting into black rifles. Unsure of 5.56 or 7.62.
Big question is how reliable are the cheaper knock offs or Norincos?
trying to weigh out the cost-benefit ratio of the cheap ones vs say a Colt or Bushmaster.
Would be using cheap/bulk ammo.
Click to expand...


or you could buy my match hbar....which i'm motivated to sell...
 
Buy once, cry once. Save your pennies over the winter and buy something decent for the spring or summer.

I've had nothing but trouble with Norinco. Wouldn't keep one of their "M4's" if you gave it to me. In my opinion, Norincos are poorly made. Buy Colt, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc. You get what you pay for. I didn't chime in to tell you what brand to buy. Just stay away from the cheaper brands.

For the record, built a rifle off of Sabre Defense receivers with Daniel Defense and KAC parts and couldn't be happier. Over 1000 rounds last time at the range and not so much as a hiccup. I can't say that about the last Norinco I shot at the range...
 
Since the mid 80's I have owned 3 Colts, an Armalite, and a Bushmaster. 3 Years ago I bought a Norinco. In all fairness I wasn't expecting much. It has yet to jam. Shoots as good as any of the others. I just finished 3rd in the IPSC 3gun provincial championships here with it, and it was stock for the most part. So it's good enough for me. Marstar I think is selling them for $530

Moe
 
MikeDelta said:
Buy once, cry once. Save your pennies over the winter and buy something decent for the spring or summer.

I've had nothing but trouble with Norinco. Wouldn't keep one of their "M4's" if you gave it to me. In my opinion, Norincos are poorly made. Buy Colt, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc. You get what you pay for. I didn't chime in to tell you what brand to buy. Just stay away from the cheaper brands.

For the record, built a rifle off of Sabre Defense receivers with Daniel Defense and KAC parts and couldn't be happier. Over 1000 rounds last time at the range and not so much as a hiccup. I can't say that about the last Norinco I shot at the range...
Click to expand...


This.

Norinco & DA are garbage; if your ok with poor quality control & out of spec parts, then fine, you get what you pay for. Save the extra couple hundred and get a quality AR.

There is no reason whatsoever with the current price drops on almost all AR brands that you should buy the aforementioned. These 'things' were understandably popular (price point) 1-3 years ago when the AR market was dry and over priced & the gun scare was in full effect in the US. Now, the competition is fierce and prices are dropping...

And dont buy this "my Norc has never jammed once" defense of the poor quality. A Lada will get me to the grocery store and back....
 
The thing with manufacturing is that you will get statistically much lower defects if
1 Your materials are top quality and supplied by certified suppliers with proven paper trail.
2 Your machine tools, presses, dies, cutters, aging solutions, etc are best of breed.
3 Your follow total quality, six sigma, deming etc processes.

If only one of those categories is not best of breed and best practices, your number of known defects escalate and your number of unknown defects that slip through climb through the roof.

Now these processes are mighty expensive, but in the industry where I work in, where we deal with certified and guaranteed loss of life if one of our defects slip through, we absolutely have no choice.

Now I understand some Chinese products are top, I own an iPhone and I wear Arcteryx, but none of these items puts my life in danger if something goes wrong. (I'm not going to climb everest any time soon with my arcteryx pants where I need to place a 911 call with my iPhone.)

So long answer to say this:
You will notice a lot more defects statistically on a Norinco product as compared to a colt, dd, stag, kac. You might get a very good norc, but your chances of getting a lemon are much higher than say your chances of getting a lemon colt.

If you are really really unlucky you will buy a Norc that will wind up being a lemon, you will get frustrated and then buy a colt and that one winds up a lemon too! :) It could happen...
 
I wouldn't want a DPMS either.

It comes down to the details for me though. Properly staking the carrier key/castle nut, MPI/HPT/shot peened bolts and barrels, finishing under the FSB (if equipped), etc. Google search the "AR15 comparison chart" and you'll notice that the higher the cost rifles have many more features and/or better materials used. I know that this may not be the case for a lot of people. I save my money to buy the best quality that I can instead of buying because it's on sale for $600.

Sure, you could spend the money you saved on ammo or an optic but you'll still have a lower quality rifle in the end.

By the way, yes I do drink the Mil-Spec Kool-Aid.
 
Simple, Colt or LMT..... I own or have owned Norinco, Sabre defense, LMT, Imperial Defense, Armalite, Bushmaster, Daniel Defense, and Stag... Colt and LMT are the two M4 rifles that worked best for me. There will always be debates here on spending more on a top tier rifle as opposed to buying cheap and upgrading but if you want a "no frills, traditional M4" out of the box rifle, spend a couple extra dollars. That being said... if you want to pimp out an AR and are not interested in the old school M4 look, look for a used rifle on the EE that someone else is willing to take a loss on.

Just my opinion.
 
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