AR-15 vs. M305

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Rohann

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I already started a thread on this in the service rifle forum, but it wasn't getting too many replies so:
Which could be made more accurate with the least amount of money? Which could, regardless of cost, be made more accurate? I'm not talking for just service rifle matches, but for shooting as well.

-Rohann
 
Well if I understand correctly the fact that the restriction on the AR is not an issue, the AR is by far superior to the M1A system.

A tuned M1A will give a hard time to the AR, but maintaining the M1A in top condition is achievable only if you want to develop a relationship with your gunsmith.

If you go with an AR 10 in 260 rem(custom gun) the M1A is not the picture anymore.

The big advantage of the AR system are;
- easy to clean and maintain
- easy to put any type of optics
- lots of parts that YOU can install
- no bedding
- multi caliber system
- extremely accurate

If you stick with the 223 caliber, the AR is faster to get on target for rapid fire competition.

Past 600yds you will have to move to a 80gr bullet single loading every round.

A very interesting variant of the AR 15 is the 6.5Grendel caliber which will give you ballistic caracteristics superior to the 308, with little recoil and less powder.


If you go for a custom AR, Istrongly suggest that you buy a stripped lower and put the trigger system and stock of your choice.
No point in spending money on something you will take out anyway.

In regard to the upper, I went with Compass Lake Engeneering in Florida.
Frank specialise in highpower competition, I have an excess of 6000rnds throught it and still shoot 1/2 MOA(of elevation) at 600m.


The Grendel have long range models and you will find all the info on there website.


The AR10 is the same beast as the AR15 and you should proceed the same way.
The only reputable gunsmith that I know about is G.A. Precision which has the 260rem option.


Dont get me wrong, the M1A is a nice rifle to have but it is high maintenance and needs someone more competent than me to service it.

Hope I helped a little, if you need more info it will be my pleasure
 
He said M-305 not the m1a that go for over 1500$ the m305 can be had for $450 shipped to your door :D the AR-15 cost about 1000-1500$.
Who said the M305 was hard to clean either it takes 2 seconds to disassemble and then put back to gather. Out of the box with open sights you can hit 3" gong every time at 100 yards and on paper its about 1.5" 2" groups. You put 500$ more in to the gun and it will one of the best cheep shooters out there period :D Pluss it aint that sissy .223 round :p ;) :D
ttyal
Riley
 
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Thanks a ton for all the info provided ssgp2. I'd like a rifle in possibly .308 or 6.8, or even .223. What about the M305? Also, what about the difference in cost?

-Rohann
 
Yep!
The 305 is a different animal

Guess I was still sleeping when I read your post ;)

When I read the word accuracy and long range,I tend to go all the way.

I have no experience with the m305, I owned a M1A super match a while ago and my comments where based on that experience.

The word accuracy needs to be defined here, what are you looking for 1/2 MOA,1 MOA, 2MOA ?

If you are happy with death-junky experience, by all means go for the M305.
I think he is right about the value/price of the rifle.

I did not buy a M305 because I own an Indian FAL, and it does what the M305 does for 150$ :)


The rifles I described above will run you at about 2500 to 3000$, the M305 is not in the same league obviously.

Personnally I would not built up a M305 to a match grade rifle, it will cost a little less than an M1A match and you still have a Norinco in your hands.

I owned a Sprinfield and when it was time to get it tuned, the warranty took care of everything except the bedding.

That is a personnal view, some people are willing to spend 40K on a Honda, others just buy a BMW.
 
There really is no mistery to an AR system. With the AR you need an accurate barrel and accurate ammo. There is no 'tuning' required, all the 'match' triggers, stocks, grips, rails, etc. are essentially bolt on shooter feel good crap. (with the exception of a full float rail -if you are tensioning a sling)
If you have a decent barrel & ammo, it will shoot well. period.

The M305, M14 system may (read will) require tuning of the gas system to get the same performance, and definately with the Norinco, while the barrel is decent, it will not perform to the standard of a decent AR barrel.

Case in point: A gently used Colt Match Sporter was at the gun show here in Calgary this past weekend at Wolverine's table. It had a 1:7 HB, match trigger and an ambi safety. sticker price was $1050
I'd bet dollars to donuts this thing could kick the ass of a stock M305 with about $1000 worth of upgrades done to it (or a stock M1a for that matter).

And...
No offence, but your thread in the Service Rifle forum is three pages long. Some exceptional shooters have all given you good info on which is which.
There is nothing wrong with pouring money into an M14 system, whatever floats your boat, but maybe you need to fire at least one of each and formulate your own opinion....;)
 
Thanks for the posts. Well I think I'll buy an M305 eventually, but the AR system seems to be the way to go.
Are AR-10's restricted? I'd like a bigger, longer range rifle but I'm also looking to get an M4-like rifle at some point down the road.
I'm talking about 1MOA accuracy here too.

-Rohann
 
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beltfed said:
There really is no mistery to an AR system. With the AR you need an accurate barrel and accurate ammo. There is no 'tuning' required, all the 'match' triggers, stocks, grips, rails, etc. are essentially bolt on shooter feel good crap. (with the exception of a full float rail -if you are tensioning a sling)
If you have a decent barrel & ammo, it will shoot well. period.

The M305, M14 system may (read will) require tuning of the gas system to get the same performance, and definately with the Norinco, while the barrel is decent, it will not perform to the standard of a decent AR barrel.

Case in point: A gently used Colt Match Sporter was at the gun show here in Calgary this past weekend at Wolverine's table. It had a 1:7 HB, match trigger and an ambi safety. sticker price was $1050
I'd bet dollars to donuts this thing could kick the ass of a stock M305 with about $1000 worth of upgrades done to it (or a stock M1a for that matter).
Click to expand...
Well you have not upgraded an M-305 then, the total price to have a sub 1" rifle is about 400$ in upgrades add that on top of the 450 so say $850 total with tax and shipped for a sub MOA rifle, well that is one hell of a deal. The only thing i can say is that the mounts are quite expensive and fiberglass stocks are getting hard to find. another great benefit to the M-305 is it is 308 Winchester :D you can hunt almost any animal from bear to moose with out blinking an eye lets see you do that with a .223 ;) so ya for the same price as a AR you have a gun that shoots as well or better with all the upgrades including stock and mount and possibly a scope that you can also hunt with it.
ttyal
Riley
 
I don't think he's inteersted in hunting.
the AR will yield greater accuracy due to a more advanced design, a modular conception and the - of course - huge aftermarket availability of upgrades.
I don't like them, but that doesn't mean they're not better in this segment of topic.
They'll never be more reliable than the AK, but more accurate - anytime.

Death Junky - look at the eliptical dispersion of POI - due to stock design - more pronunced on AK, but also present on M14.
If you've ever fired them in full auto - which I doubt - you'd know what I'm talking about.

about hunting.... why not try the .50 Beowolf? Alexander arms makes them and ith the upper swap - you're ready to go......
 
death-junky said:
Well you have not upgraded an M-305 then, the total price to have a sub 1" rifle is about 400$ in upgrades add that on top of the 450 so say $850 total with tax and shipped for a sub MOA rifle, well that is one hell of a deal. The only thing i can say is that the mounts are quite expensive and fiberglass stocks are getting hard to find. another great benefit to the M-305 is it is 308 Winchester :D you can hunt almost any animal from bear to moose with out blinking an eye lets see you do that with a .223 ;) so ya for the same price as a AR you have a gun that shoots as well or better with all the upgrades including stock and mount and possibly a scope that you can also hunt with it.
ttyal
Riley
Click to expand...

The M305s are $400 -add shipping and tax and they are around $500 landed.
I've unitized, shimmed, added a Rooster guide rod and glass bedded the fiberglass stock on my M-305. Total dollars for this was around $250. There is no way this thing is consistantly an 'moa' rifle, and there is no way $250 more is going to change it to 'sub-moa'. I am happy with how mine performs (about a 2" 10 round group at 100m with the stock irons and handloads) but short of changing to an aftermarket match grade barrel, (alone will run you -what $400-500 ?) and maybe a whack of other parts (bolt?) I seriously doubt you will hold the line with an off the shelf AR, without spending a pile of money that is higher than purchasing an AR in the first place.
Some of the fellows on here have built theirs up (Skullboy and Hungry) and all the power to them, and you if that floats yer boat.
 
beltfed said:
The M305s are $400 -add shipping and tax and they are around $500 landed.
I've unitized, shimmed, added a Rooster guide rod and glass bedded the fiberglass stock on my M-305. Total dollars for this was around $250. There is no way this thing is consistantly an 'moa' rifle, and there is no way $250 more is going to change it to 'sub-moa'. I am happy with how mine performs (about a 2" 10 round group at 100m with the stock irons and handloads) but short of changing to an aftermarket match grade barrel, (alone will run you -what $400-500 ?) and maybe a whack of other parts (bolt?) I seriously doubt you will hold the line with an off the shelf AR, without spending a pile of money that is higher than purchasing an AR in the first place.
Some of the fellows on here have built theirs up (Skullboy and Hungry) and all the power to them, and you if that floats yer boat.
Click to expand...
Well then i gess the one ive been using is a freak :D my uncles (mine when i get my PAL) has not had 1 upgrade done to it yet i can shoot 1 1/2" 100 yard groups with it all day with out a problem useing the stock iorn sights, oh by the way im useing walmart ammo as well. so i know that if i do the upgrades i should have a MOA shooting rifle :D oh and to Vancouver island shipped from marstar it was 459.00$ 480 with a 5/20 round mag.
ttyal
Riley
 
I may have the opportunity to buy a non-restricted Valmet AK in .308 from someone. Is it worth it? Can these be made accurate enough to use in service rifle?

-Rohann
 
Beltfed is right.

Yes, we have built our M305's up into serous medium range tackdrivers. Now here's the sequel to the story....

I sold BOTH my Douglas bbl'ed Norinco M14's since I don't compete with them. I compete in the Service Conditions game with my 20" HBAR Armalite upper, Bushmaster lower.

Why?

First of all, my true love will always be the '14. But not at the prices that today's accuracy would require me to spend and then to maintain at that level.

The Norinco M14 is a 1.5 to 2.0 MOA shooter right outta the box without any changes/mods. The typical HBAR is anywhere between a 0.75 and 1.5 MOA shooter right from the box and it will continue to REMAIN a tight shooter with decent ammo throughout it's tenure as a competition rifle.

With the M14 on the competition circuit, I find that I would always be tweaking it to ensure that it STAYS tweaked. The HBAR, all I gotta do is keep it clean and lubed and then it's good to go.

Now those maintenance and acquisition issues aside, the AR is a lot cheaper to feed and continue to compete with for about 4 to 5 Service Conditions matches each season. Spare parts such as bolt gas rings (few bucks), spare bolt ($ 50), bolt cam pin ($ 5), firing pin ($ 6) are so easy to find almost anywhere and for a competitive bangstick, I need that kind of support or parts availability. When I shot NRA High Power with my TRW, Win, HRA M14's, I could buy bolts for $ 35 at Toronto Gun Shows back in 1985... brand new in the brown paper/foil wrap. The current going rate for USGI bolts at around $ 250 upwards is not friendly for a rifle that is going to be competing or used a lot for the season.

Now, here is where the Norc M14 truly shines ! Back to my ubiquitous advice , " Don't buy ONE, buy 2 of them." You can buy 2 or maybe 3 of the M14's for the price of ONE Armalite 16" carbine. Then in that context you can go and compete in local Service Conditions matches.

The second rifle is a great back up especially in the light of shooting lots and lots of milsurp ball ammo. You always have spare parts available. Better yet, pull off the reciever and flog it for a few hundred bucks. Keep all the extra parts as spare goodies. You are still further ahead.

See where I'm going with this argument ? The addiction is a lot of fun....

Let's keep the Norinco M14 projects in perspective. If you want a tackdriver for under $ 1000, then buy a Remington M700P, or Savage 10FP or Tikka T3 or Winchester StealthII, or any varmint rifle. If you truly must spend $ 500 for an M14 match barrel and another $ 300 for a TRW USGI bolt, then be prepared to punch upwards of $ 2000 into the project. Just recognize that your off the shelf varmint gun will still outshoot your expensive M14 at 800 yards/meters.

Frankly, I'm advising all the M14 owners and lovers to keep their spending to a minimum and just simply have a lot of fun tweaking.

Now, just to piggyback on what Beltfed and Speckfire mentioned... the arena that the AR cannot touch the Norinco M14 is the SOPMOD (whatever moniker they use) packages that are being marketed by Springfield INC these days. By chopping your barrel to 18.5" and tossing on a red dot scope, you can effectively deliver the goods in a way that NO AR15 could ever match. I've always dreamed of hunting deer with an 18.5" barreled M14 and an ACOG on top of the ARMS # 18. There is nothing stopping you from taking your $ 399 M14 to Ellwood Epps and having Doug cut down, crown and then thread an AR15 flash hider (bored out of course) for your short range hunting needs. What a wicked project ! A super short package for a carry rifle in bear country.

Save your money. What's in your wallet?

That's it, I'm gonna work for the ING Direct people ! LOL

When that slow boat from China ever shows up, I'll be down for grabbing another project bangstick for $ 399 It's certainly a shztload cheaper than finding ANY M1 Garand for a shooter.

I hope this insight helps

Peace be to journey,
Barney
 
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If you want accuracy, I would consider getting an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel upper. Superior performance to the 308 Win. out to 1200 yards and it fits in the AR-15 platform.

The Grendel brass is made by Lapua. Which means its superb and likely available from our Canadian Lapua distributor. 6.5mm bullets are easy to find.

Of course, it will be more expensive to shoot than both the 308 and the 223. But you could always get a .223 upper for plinking.
 
Only downside to the superb Lapua brass and an autoloader is gathering up the brass from wherever the rifle has unceremoniously tossed them.
 
Yeah, it suck to loose it when you've put a lot of time into preparing it. Thats an issue with any caliber in a semi, though. A brass catcher takes care of that problem easy enough and it a worthwhile investment for any precision semi-auto.
 
Thanks a ton for the posts guys.
Hungry: Thanks for all the info, but I'm still unsure of what to do:confused:. I think my first service rifle will be an AR-15, but the SOPMOD M14's really make me drool. How much do you think one of those would go for? And what would be the estimated cost of setting up a basic AR-15 in .223 or .308? Too bad you can't shoot service rifle with a Remington 700 :(.

-Rohann
 
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