AR Vs XCR
- Thread starter DT741
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andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
With the newer XCR, there are barely any reliability issues.
And plus Wolverine (importer of XCR) is very good when it comes to customer service.
Sure a used early generation XCR-L that has been back for repairs twice and has 5000+ rounds of Norinco bulk through it. You're going to pay at least $2000 for a fairly new one with low round count.
The best thing about the XCR is the service Wolverine is providing. Any problems at all and they send you new parts or have you send the rifle back for service. The service is phenomenal and I'm very impressed but the rifle has one main issue that needs to be addressed before it will be a good shooter. The barrel retention system is crap for consistent accuracy. When they address that and combined with the new much lighter keymod upper the rifle will move up to being a great rifle, until then it is just a cool rifle that because of Canadian law creating a niche for it continues to sell for $500-$700 more than it should.
I agree about Wolverines, they are real pros and goods but buying a rifle and always having a cloud over your head is not my idea of a reliable rifle, i guess it could change with time but still for that kind of money, there should be no doubts at all except the usual troubles any rifles could encounter... JP.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
I have sold few XCR and watched the XCR market recently, the basic black model can go for $1900. It is not the first generation of the XCR like you said.
Even the XCR M are going for $2200.
Why compare used gun prices?
Lets compare new prices for both guns...that will be practical.
Brand new XCR L is $2350. Brand new ACR is $2700 to $2800. That is roughly $400 to $500 price difference after tax.
Even the best rifles out there has the chance of having reliability issues. There is NO gun out there that is 100% reliable.
There was a report recently that a $3500 AR15 had FTE and/or FTF issues.....
Hopefully they will make a full recovery from their past reputation, the GM syndrome could be around for a while, i just wish for the best, make another option available, i bought a XCR-M in the past and did sell it back, it made me unsecured... JP.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Yes, unfortunately it is hard to get rid of the history of bad experiences with any rifle.
If you can afford it keep the AR and just save up for an XCR.
While the idea of plinking in the woods sounds great, you should sit down and try to remember all the times the opportunity to go out in the bush have presented itself that you had to turn it down, because you don't have anything that is non-restricted. Getting rid of your AR for a heavier XCR for that 1 in 10 chance of using it in the bush just doesn't make any sense.
Having said that I own two XCR's a 2009 rifle and a newer micro, I also own two AR's a Stag and a PWS along with 3 uppers and even a Tavor. I am a 2 MOA shooter with semi auto's, as long as I can pick off 6" paper plates standing up at 100 m I am a happy man.
Personally I haven't had any parts falling or breaking off on my XCR's like I have read about on this forum. they are my go to guns for the annual club open house lot of times the guests will go through 600-800 rounds of 7.62 X 39 in the matter of 2 hours with no problems what so ever. most my FTF and FTE were problem with the surplus ammo which were easily solved with just turning up the gas up another notch. cleaning is easy as it can be, learn how to torque down a screw and you are good to go.
While the idea of plinking in the woods sounds great, you should sit down and try to remember all the times the opportunity to go out in the bush have presented itself that you had to turn it down, because you don't have anything that is non-restricted. Getting rid of your AR for a heavier XCR for that 1 in 10 chance of using it in the bush just doesn't make any sense.
Having said that I own two XCR's a 2009 rifle and a newer micro, I also own two AR's a Stag and a PWS along with 3 uppers and even a Tavor. I am a 2 MOA shooter with semi auto's, as long as I can pick off 6" paper plates standing up at 100 m I am a happy man.
Personally I haven't had any parts falling or breaking off on my XCR's like I have read about on this forum. they are my go to guns for the annual club open house lot of times the guests will go through 600-800 rounds of 7.62 X 39 in the matter of 2 hours with no problems what so ever. most my FTF and FTE were problem with the surplus ammo which were easily solved with just turning up the gas up another notch. cleaning is easy as it can be, learn how to torque down a screw and you are good to go.
I was quoted $2500 for a new ACR from a local retailer before I found mine on the EE and IRG was selling them for $2500 new.
I do like the M version a lot more than the L and after handling the new keymod M the rifle is more appealing but as Caramel said, there shouldn't be so many XCR's needing replacement parts before they even make it through the break-in period. We all know that the internet is full of exaggeration and you always hear more about the lemons than the good ones but there have been a lot of threads on this site with guys needing parts for a relatively new rifle. Of course the guys that spent $2500 on one and haven't had problems are going to get defensive but the problem free ones don't seem to be the majority of rifles.
Back on topic. Unless you need it to be non restricted the AR is a far better rifle for the money. If you were going to spend $2200 on an XCR or an AR then the $2200 AR would be far more reliable, accurate, and easier to accessorize and buy parts for.
This ^^^
I live close to Edmonton and it is a minimum of a 1.5 hour drive to find anywhere I can shoot without needing permission. There just aren't that many places to go these days with all the new housing developments and acreage subdivisions popping up all over the place. I have my non restricted black rifles but 98% of my shooting is done at the range and I can have just as much fun "in the bush" with a bolt action or a lever action so even if I didn't have one I would still shoot on crown land the same amount.
That is why I have 4 AR's and 1 non restricted black rifle. The numbers and ratios of restricted to non restricted varies as I find good deals on the EE but it doesn't change the fact that most of my shooting is done at a range.
Pistols, revolvers and AR's made me push aside my private land range, went only 3 times this year, if you choose those, home made range come second but i regret nothing, it will always be there and things will stabilze over the next few years... Then, it will be time to pick up were i left with my NR's... JP.
andrew3081
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
So the fact still remains that NR ACR will a lot cost more than a NR XCR. Not to mention the wait time for you to get the barrel converted to NR. The time lost that you can be using to shoot the rifle you paid over $2500 for. Those wait time could be mean more cost for the ACR depending on how you look at it.
And I am not sure how you come in to a conclusion that majority of the XCR had problems.
I personally owned 2 XCR before and never had any problems with them. So does that mean I am lucky?
And dont be so sure about the reliability of $2200 AR15. There was a report recently of a $3000 AR15 that had FTE and/or FTF issues.
I am not related other than being a satisfied customer but i will say that the KAC SR15 A3 Mod 2 went on it's first outing with 800 Barnaul 62 gr and 300 Norc and AE 55 gr without one failure, this is one reliable AR, and accuracy, with cheap ammo was around MOA or even a bit less... I am just saying that some make are synonimous of full reliability, some other not so much... Not so much doesnt mean it's POS, it's just mean you may get a good one or you may get one symptomatic of failure... Just saying... JP.
Because you didn't have a problem with the xcr does not mean that others did not, there is already a few in this thread that have posted they are not reliable from their own experience with them. You can't use your experience as a means to discount others experiences
I never stopped shooting my ACR, I bought a barrel and went into the verifier and had him inspect it and we filled out a single page form, I took my rifle and went shooting at the range at my next opportunity, it just remains restricted until the CFO finishes looking for an excuse to refuse it. Even if you send it in for the conversion it's only a few weeks. You act like everyone out there is only allowed to have one rifle and missing out on a couple weeks shooting is the end of the world. I would just take something else out shooting until my rifle returned.
Probably 999 out of 1000 AR's from $1000 and up to whatever you want to spend function perfectly from day one until they reach 5000-10000 rounds other than maybe replacing gas rings or an extractor spring and o-ring as long as they are maintained well and fed quality ammunition and decent magazines.
The most common problems with AR's come from guys working on their own rifle who have no idea what they are doing and end up screwing something up or putting on a short barrel and not balancing the recoil system to the new barrel's gas system length.
There are constantly XCR threads on this site with guys not even making it through break-in before they need a new bolt buffer or experience a broken op-rod or just have problems getting it to cycle reliably. Much of that could of course be blamed on the use of junk Norinco surplus which a lot of XCR owners seem to like but there just seem to be a lot more threads about problems with an XCR than any other black rifle out there. This isn't a huge problem since Wolverine is standing behind the rifle completely but that still leads to down time waiting for parts and you seem to think a couple weeks without your rifle is a terrible thing.
Yes, you are one of the lucky ones if you've never had problems. How many rounds would you estimate each of your rifles has seen?
My PWS AR has seen around 5000 rounds without a single failure or broken part. The few malfunctions it has had were the fault of the operator (me and a couple friends I've let shoot it) not properly seating the magazine. The rifle will shoot about 0.8moa with 77gr factory match grade ammo and if you open it up there is barely any visible wear.
If your idea of a lot is a couple hundred dollars (after you sell the factory ACR barrel to recoup some cost) in exchange for a rifle that, other than one report from a guy in the US who had problems out of all the googling the rifle that I've done but is otherwise a zero issue rifle then go ahead and save your $200-$300 and buy a case of Norinco surplus with the money you save and have fun with your XCR.
The XCR has been around since 2006 and they are still working out the bugs, that doesn't sound good to me. Most of the stuff they are improving should have been done years ago or from day one. This isn't the first rifle they've produced, they should know what they're doing by now. It should be 1 in 10000 rifles that has an issue not 1 in 100, the number of failures is just a guess, I have no idea how many problems they have since a lot of guys probably don't come on here to cry about their broken rifle and a lot of guys probably just get it fixed and sell it on the EE without saying a word.
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So I have to add my 2c here. How many of you know how many XCR's there are in Canada let alone how many have had problems?
It would appear from some posters comments that they know far more about it than I. I do not know exact numbers but I am very confident is saying that it is a small percentage of the total XCR's as all warranty is covered by us and all the parts.
As cr5 commented, the internet is full of exaggeration (when there is a problem) and no comment when everything works as it should leading some people to conclude that the rifle is no good.
It would appear from some posters comments that they know far more about it than I. I do not know exact numbers but I am very confident is saying that it is a small percentage of the total XCR's as all warranty is covered by us and all the parts.
As cr5 commented, the internet is full of exaggeration (when there is a problem) and no comment when everything works as it should leading some people to conclude that the rifle is no good.
Not saying the rifle is bad, when i was at the range with a gentleman, trading our rifle back and forth, we had 3 failures to feed with the M, this gentleman told me, it was time for a clean up... I am sorry to say that but a rifle that give me 3 failures in 100 rounds is catastrophic in my book, this AR DPMS Oracle 308 i was shooting that day saw in excess of 3K copperwash stuff with half a dozen drops of Froglube and 3 or 4 wipes with a rag without one stoppage... I could accept one failure per K rounds even there i would have to check why it happened... Cheers. JP.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they are flawless but I do find the negative side to be greatly exaggerated and I do not know of a single mass produced firearm manufacturer that only has a 1 in 10,000 failure rate.
I have worked with firearms with much higher failure rates than the XCR's. My guess is that due to the volume of XCR's in the country and the fairly niche market leads to the perception that there are more problems with these rifles than there really are.
I have worked with firearms with much higher failure rates than the XCR's. My guess is that due to the volume of XCR's in the country and the fairly niche market leads to the perception that there are more problems with these rifles than there really are.
