AR15 Front Sights Blocking Red Dot

CanadianReich

CanadianReich

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Aug 4, 2011: note- posted months ago, I just posted a follow-up youtube link of an experiment that was suggested here....shooting RD with front lens caps on. Anything after and including post 16 is on the topic of "shooting with both eyes open, looking past the RD sights to the target, rather than through the RD sights".
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So, I take off the irons that came with my Norinco M4 and toss on red-dot sight.

The Red dot is about 1cm below the front sight.

Is this a problem???

Ive heard (google, some guys claiming to be USMC) that one needs to merely open both eyes and look past the front post yet I see on CGN so many people using risers to get that red dot OVER the front post or putting their scope ON the original irons.


ATM Im thinking keep the red dot where it is with the front post blocking the dot and try it at the range, both eyes open.... ive a feeling i should be ok. Then toss on a flip-up rear iron and im done.


opinions?

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adding the google source:

"No, the sights are not in the way. Your focus is on the target and not the sights so you don't even see them when shooting.
When using a red-dot scope you keep both eyes open and the dot appears to project onto the target. Once you get used to shooting with a red-dot you can get very fast at acquiring and eliminating targets, especially in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) and/or low light situations which is what they are primarily designed & used for.
A BUIS (Back-Up Iron Sight) should be used in conjunction with a red-dot scope as they fold/pivot out of the way to eliminate any possibility of obscuring the dot from the user. If for some reason the scope fails or you just feel the urge to use iron sights then the BUIS can be brought up and it will automatically align/co-witness (after it is properly zeroed) with the fixed front site through the scope.

Now on to the second part of the question. The ACOG is a fine scope and I would highly recommend using a quick-release camming style mount and avoid the screw type. In my experience the screw type will eventually shoot itself loose unless it is constantly checked (that is why you see para-cord wrapped around the accessories on our troops weapons).
A.R.M.S., GG&G, and LaRue are the best of the several companies offering quick-release style mounts for the ACOG, stick with one of them and you won't go wrong. Personally I would recommend the A.R.M.S. mount because there is a feature that allows the camming arms to be zip-tied in place for additional protection from accidental release, you definitely don't want your ACOG hitting the ground.
Source(s):
6 years active duty U.S.M.C.
13 months as a private security contractor in Iraq & Afghanistan.
Lots and lots of weapons experience!"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070530192827AAes665
 
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When using a red dot sight you look at the target and not the sights. You have both eyes open and the dot sort of floats out there between you and the target. If sighted in properly put the dot on the target and shoot it. That's it.

The reason some like to add risers and such is for two reasons. One is to true co-witness, or the dot and the tip of the front sight at the same spot in you field of view. And two, what is called lower third co=witness, or the tip of the front sight is in the lower third of the red dot's tube.

True co-witness:

VORTEX-StrikeFire-AR-15-Red-Dot-Scope.jpg


Lower third:

strikefire_ar15_reticle-t.jpg


The reason people do this is that if the red dot fails you have to do nothing but focus on the sights to continue shooting. As to which to use that is personal preference.

Some people find it hard to not focus on the red dot sight with a true co-witness. So they use a lower third to "de-cluter" their sight picture. I prefer a true co-witness. You will have to try both and see which works better for you.

The biggest thing is getting used to not looking at the sights but at the target with both eyes open. Some people have a hard time doing this, it takes some practice.

Hope that helps some.

Shawn
 
I also forgot to add that you don't need to be able to see through the red dot sight for it to work. As long as you can see the dot and the target you are good to go. As in, if the front of the red dot is covered in mud but the back is clear.

Try this at the range, leave the front cap on your red dot. Turn it on and with both eyes open aim at the target as you normally would. The dot with still be floating out there between you and the target. Same as before put dot on target and shoot it.

I am sure some can explain how that work better than me. I will just say that it works by PFM (Pure F**king Magic)

Shawn
 
My understanding.

My understanding of what the OP is asking about, is that he does not have lower third or absolute co-witness, but that the RDS is mounted so low that the body of the front sight is actually blocking the target. What you might describe as "upper third" co-witness, if such a thing existed.

OP, you need to look at the descriptions and differences between lower third and absolute co-witness, decide what you would prefer, and get the appropriate mount/spacer for your RDS.

If you can tell us what RDS you have, we can tell you what mounts are available. One or two will allow either co-witness by just changing the spacer, a couple of dollar part, rather than getting a whole new mount, if you later decide that you prefer one over the other.

Regards.

Mark
 
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I also forgot to add that you don't need to be able to see through the red dot sight for it to work. As long as you can see the dot and the target you are good to go. As in, if the front of the red dot is covered in mud but the back is clear.

Try this at the range, leave the front cap on your red dot. Turn it on and with both eyes open aim at the target as you normally would. The dot with still be floating out there between you and the target. Same as before put dot on target and shoot it.

I am sure some can explain how that work better than me. I will just say that it works by PFM (Pure F**king Magic)
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
MWL said:
My understanding of what the OP is asking about, is that he does not have lower third or absolute co-witness, but that the RDS is mounted so low that the body of the front sight is actually blocking the target. What you might describe as "upper third" co-witness, if such a thing existed.

OP, you need to look at the descriptions and differences between lower third and absolute co-witness, decide what you would prefer, and get the appropriate mount/spacer for your RDS.

If you can tell us what RDS you have, we can tell you what mounts are available. One or two will allow either co-witness by just changing the spacer, a couple of dollar part, rather than getting a whole new mount, if you later decide that you prefer one over the other.

Regards.

Mark
Click to expand...

cheapo Tasco Red Dot 5MOA from Canadian Tire. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/1/Hunting/RifleSpottingScopes/PRDOVR~0755532P/Tasco%2BRed%2BDot%2BScope%252C%2B1%2Bx%2B30.jsp

1st red dot so went cheap.......but based on the CT reviews and the dozens and dozens of Americans that put it on their SKS/AK47/AR15s is a damn good red dot for the money. Ive yet to test it but it apparently doesn't lose zeroing etc. Its made for a shotgun so if it can handle that kick is should be ok for .223 rounds on an AR15 platform.

From what Ive read both eyes open and looking at red dot only is the way to go while the newbies / noobs (and again this is based on what ive read from the supposide US army types) need to have the dot unblocked by the front sights.

Ill try it out at the range, whenever i go (not often) and see if i cant get used to it with the front cap on and then with both caps off. Theoretically it seems logical to look at your target and the dot and not try to line things up looking through the scope.

Ill let u all know how it goes, and eventually let you now what i think of the cheapo RD from CT :b

(all the below are 5 star reviews, the scope got 4.5 stars on average from all users on all review sites)
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CT review from AR15 owner "I was looking for a cheap alternative to the more expensive military red dot scopes (ie. aimpoint and trijicon). I own a AR-15 (military rifle) and was told these lesser valued scopes were not that good. Could not have been more wrong. installed the scope and after setting the view finder to my settings found groupings at 50yrds of about 2moa (1.5" to 2"). My interests in the rifle were for no more than 50-100yrd distance. I have fired about 300-400 rounds with the scope on and have had no problems. Any one looking for a cheaper red dot scope look no further. I would recommend this to anyone on a buget."

from http://www.amazon.com/Tasco-30mm-Rifle-Scope-Reticle/product-reviews/B000GF1HKQ/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

for $30, how can you go wrong? it works, it fits, its a decent quality. ive put around 200 rounds through my AR15 using this. it needed very little sighting in at 50 yards, moreso at 100. its not a precision scope......its a red dot used mainly for combat type situations. just put the dot on the target and it goes down. at 50 yds you can put nearly every shot in the black rings. at 100, the dot covers nearly the entire bullseye area, so its harder to be as accurate. but youll still be near enough the center, and easily hit a man or animal at that range. and again, for $30, how can you go wrong? worth every penny.

This little red dot is a great quality build for the price. I already have a couple hundred rounds through it and still is holding it's zero. For those mounting on an AR platform you will probably have to get a weaver (picatinny) rail to put on top of your stock weaver rail to raise it above your front sight if it's not removable. Overall very happy with the product, would recommend to anyone wanting to get a red dot but not having to take out a mortgage just to buy one.
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http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=535901
Works great first one I ever owned. I mounted it on my SKS-D with a Tapco stock and within 30rds was dead nuts. Dot has to be set on 11 in highlight areas but was a perfect dot.

Had this mounted on my ak, And I just put it on my M4 love it. I have better visibilty with it on my carry handle. Can't be beat for the price.

WOW! Mounted it on an Ar-15 and expected mediocre performance. Was pleasantly surprised at how fast target aquision is! Both eyes open, no magnification. Be careful while sighting in, caps are so small, I almost lost one.

If you plan to buy a Red Dot sight you will need to have 20/20 vision with or without glasses in the eye you aim with or the dot will look like a cluster of grapes, as I have heard it called, mine did without my glasses. With my glasses on the sight has a nice round dot outside, inside you get glare and the dot is not so round. I mounted it on a forward Quad Rail mount on my AK47. It looks very nice and it is a very good sight. Like I said, the dot is round. The sight is light weight and compact, holds zero well, lenses have a slight tint to them, which helps in bright sunlight, Works in bright sunlight on setting 7, 8 or more. Looks very nice with Butler Creek flip open caps. The tube diameter is 38.9mm, eye and objective, so that will tell you what size caps to order. The mount is cheap and hard to deal with because the front screw slides back and forward to give some lead way in mounting. Once you do get it mounted it works well, if not use a light hold lock tight. After reading all the reviews I decided to try one and I agree with all of the good reviews it received. Buy one, people may roll their eyes who have never had one but you will like it and the best part you save a-whole-lot of money.

I use this on my M4. Received a little flak from fellow CQB shooters for not buying the Aimpoint sight that most other M4s use. I silenced all critics, though, once they saw my quick target acquisition and shot groupings. Plenty durable and holds zero well. Not the brightest dot if you're shooting in afternoon desert sun. Works extremely well if you add Butler Creek flip-up scope covers (12eye & 15obj). If using for tactical purposes there is no need to step up to a 40mm, the 30mm gives you both eyes open target acquisition. Will withstand rapid fire. My only complaint is that you can't use this sight for co-witnessing. It's "built on" mount is too low to co-witness on a flattop and adding a riser block locates the sight about 3/8" over the top of the front iron sight. This is only an issue for AR and M4 rifles. If you use a riser or a carry handle mount you'll love this sight. Pretty good battery life on this unit, I left it on accidentally when I put my rifle in it's case for 2 days. The dot was still lit just as bright as when I put it away. As a matter of fact, I'm still running on the same battery. For the price you can't beat the quality. If you don't like it (which I doubt), at least you didn't sink a whole paycheck into it.

m giving this a five star simply because of price. I bought it originally to mount on my Mossberg 500 for a 3 gun match but at the last minute put it on an SKS-D for the same match. It performed well except that I had to have it on the highest setting to see the dot. It was a very sunny day and the dot washed out at any other setting. I noticed that at that setting the dot was not originally a perfect circle but was adequate for use in the match. It held up well and I actually didn't miss with any shots. This is the first red dot I've used and was pleasantly surprised with the ease of target acquisition. If you are just getting into red dots, this is the one to get.

have had my sight for about 12 years now. It has been the go to first optic for every firearm I have ever put optics on. It has been on 3 of my .22 rifles, an SKS, 30/30, and an AR15. I even used it on my open class Glock 17 for a while. I now have it mounted on my MPA30-SST and I love it. It has been dropped, thrown in the trunk and if it rains oh well, mine has handled it. After 12 years the rubberized coating is finally coming off and the objective lens has a tiny chip in the edge.The dot is still clear and holds it's adjustments.

well there are more but thats enough........

i figured for $49.99 it was worth a try (and its $36 in the USA!!! WTF our $ is worth more!)
 
CanadianReich said:
Classic.


I could have any AR15 and any red dot and still have this "problem".


Its a noob question not a problem.....
Click to expand...

Get a riser for it. Fabsports sells Yankee Hill ones. Edit: scratch that, they don't have any long enough for that sight. Check Marstar or eBay.

Or, get a different RDS that's meant for an AR with the appropriate mount.
 
CanadianReich said:
From what Ive read both eyes open and looking at red dot only is the way to go while the newbies / noobs (and again this is based on what ive read from the supposide US army types) need to have the dot unblocked by the front sights.
Click to expand...

You dont look at the red dot you look at the target and your brain superimposes the dot into your field of vision. Your dominate eye is looking through the red dot tube to the target and your weak side eye is looking at the target without any obstruction.

Your brain then adds the two pictures toghter so you see only one, with a red dot floating over the target.

CanadianReich said:
Ill try it out at the range, whenever i go (not often) and see if i cant get used to it with the front cap on and then with both caps off. Theoretically it seems logical to look at your target and the dot and not try to line things up looking through the scope.

Ill let u all know how it goes, and eventually let you now what i think of the cheapo RD from CT :b
Click to expand...

The only time you need to have the front of the red dot sight clear is if it is important for you to be able to see something through the tube, ie iron sights. If you don't care or need this you can leave the red dot were it is and it will work fine. It will just be harder to sight in.

One of the advantages to running with a true co-witness is that to sight in the red dot sight all you need to do is put the dot on the front sight, once you sight in the irons.

Try it out and see what work for you. I bet you will want a riser for either lower third or true co witness, once you get some rounds down range.

Shawn
 
Sight height

Looking at the sight on the CT website, it appears to come with an integral mount.

It looks like it is probably a little low for mounting directly to an AR flat top rail, which is why you are getting the sight picture you are.

If you want to practice getting used to shooting the RDS with both eyes open, you can cover over the front of the scope (with some duct tape if it does not come with covers).

This won't solve the problem of the "upper third" co-witness you are experiencing. If your front sight is actually blocking the target rather than sitting at absolute or lower third co-witness, then a spacer is the only thing that will solve that issue.

Ignor the whole "cheap cr@p" thing. Not everyone can afford (or even make proper use of) a Noveske with CQBSS. Shoot the hell out of it and save up for something better, if you feel you really need it.

Regards.

Mark
 
shawn said:
Yyou dont look at the red dot you look at the target and your brain superimposes the dot into your field of vision.
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yeah thats what i meant........ not looking through the scope but "looking at the red dot" ...damn my inabiltiy to express myself.


Im hoping it works for me and then ill just add a flip up rear iron sight to the rail and im done!

:b
 
shawn said:
I also forgot to add that you don't need to be able to see through the red dot sight for it to work. As long as you can see the dot and the target you are good to go. As in, if the front of the red dot is covered in mud but the back is clear.

Try this at the range, leave the front cap on your red dot. Turn it on and with both eyes open aim at the target as you normally would. The dot with still be floating out there between you and the target. Same as before put dot on target and shoot it.

I am sure some can explain how that work better than me. I will just say that it works by PFM (Pure F**king Magic)

Shawn
Click to expand...


(Finally) did it........ it works.


ill likely get pure thumbs down from folks who think this is about tasco red dots or my setup but its about the experiment :)

[youtube]34rjJNG8lf0[/youtube]
 
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Two things:

1) occluded eye optics results, for the vast majority of users, in pretty significant POA shift. Lots of guns have been run this way and it does work, but at 20m, a lot of people see a shift of anywhere from 3-6 inches off the POI. Close-range critical? Probably not...most of the time. But test it out and be aware of how much shift you personally experience.

2) I would not PERSONALLY ever run a setup where the front sight post actually blocked the dot itself while in a normal shooting position.

The reason is this: yes, you're looking past the sight at the target and you can probably locate the dot properly on the target even if the FSP is obscuring part of the target.

HOWEVER: I really do not like the idea of limiting my ability to see the target. On a good old Canadian square range with a safe end and a bullety end and paper targets of a predictable size etc, there is probably not going to be a serious safety issue.

But on the 1 in a million chance that I ever suddenly have to grab a rifle and point it at someone or something that actually presents a threat, I want every possible photon that bounces off that threat to make it to my eyes. If there is any possibility that they are going to be doing something like holding a knife to my kid's neck or something, I want MAXIMUM precision, not occluded eye distortion, not "probably put the dot about there, I guess"...I want the maximum information I can get.

I realize that's describing a scenario that is improbable in the extreme. But as my dad used to say, "you will probably never need a gun in your entire life. But if you need a gun, nothing else will do." I set my guns up so that in the event I ever need them, I have 100% confidence that they will work.

FSP projecting in to the general FOV of an optic is good. FSB between the dot and the target, while your head is in a normal shooting position is bad.
 
[youtube]34rjJNG8lf0[/youtube] the red dot is way too low you need a riser to get a absolute or 1/3 co witness of the front sight post ,, or in my opinion a whole new red dot .. that tasco is made for air guns .. Get a Vortex SPARC is comes with a AR riser , its the best deal going for a red dot ,, your better off using irons over that POS ..
 
Bcviking said:
[youtube]34rjJNG8lf0[/youtube] the red dot is way too low you need a riser to get a absolute or 1/3 co witness of the front sight post ,, or in my opinion a whole new red dot .. that tasco is made for air guns .. Get a Vortex SPARC is comes with a AR riser , its the best deal going for a red dot ,, your better off using irons over that POS ..
Click to expand...


yeah yeah......i know :)

No point in spending hundreds of dollars on something to see IF you like it when you can get one cheap, that many claim works, and perhaps upgrade later/ put the tasco on a different gun.
 
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