Are HDY 150gn FMJBT as good as 168 match at 200 yds?
- Thread starter Kryogen
- Start date
ultimate_monkey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- victoria BC
match bullets ALMOST, always shoot better at any distance, that being said i was NEVER able to get the 168match from hornady to shoot at all in any of my .308s. tried various powder, jump and jam and they always seemed to be 2x the group size of the SMK. not to sure if it was a fluke that 3 rifles wouldnt shoot them, or if they just cant match the SMK
To a first order approximation the perfection of the bullet bases determine the accuracy, and the noses determine the trajectory.
By the nature of their design the FMJBT projectiles have poor bases. There are expensive exceptions.
If you want a cheap short-range projectile w/decent accuracy, pick a good flat-base SP projectile
that you can buy in bulk. Rem and Win make such things. There are others.
By the nature of their design the FMJBT projectiles have poor bases. There are expensive exceptions.
If you want a cheap short-range projectile w/decent accuracy, pick a good flat-base SP projectile
that you can buy in bulk. Rem and Win make such things. There are others.
In my opinion what you plan on shooting them out of may have a bearing on whether they are worth the extra 6 bucks. You may never notice the difference in accuracy with an iron sighted Norinco M14. With a potentially more accurate rifle with better (Scope) sights there should be a difference. Best way to find out no matter what you are shooting is some load work up and test groups with both types.
The information below was originally intended for Enfield forums the Enfield rifle shot cordite powder and a flat base bullet and machine guns used single base powders and a rebated boat tail bullet. As stated above when shooting under 300 yards a flat base bullet is generally the better choice. Also only barrels in good condition with a perfect muzzle will shoot boat tail bullets well.
Your rifle will tell you what bullet it likes best and anything we say is just a guess.
Your rifle will tell you what bullet it likes best and anything we say is just a guess.
http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-267471.html
The problem "Flat based Vs Boat tailed" in LEs is due to a misconception derived from the introduction of the mark VIII (8) bullet in the late 1930s, which was specifically designed for Long range MG use ( as had been developed by other countries as well). It was found that Bore Erosion patterns were differewnt between Cartridges loaded with Cordite and those loaded with Nitro Powder..so much so that Vickers guns which had been fired with a lot of Mark VII Cordite were dangerous to use with Mark VIII ammo, due to bullet inaccuracy caused by the Bore erosion...this was especially so with "Overhead Fire" applications. ( erratic Bullet flight could and did cause Fatalities during training and on the Battlefield to "friendly forces".)
An order was issued that Barrels should be marked "for Mark VII only or for Mark VIII only" when packing barrels in Vickers Guns CES.
The major reason for this problem is "Base Upset Obturation", a principle known since the Cast lead Minie' Bullet days of Muzzle loaders, and utilised during the short period of use of Jacketed Small calibre Round nose Cylindrical bullets...an "under-Groove diameter RN proj. was "bumped up" by the base expansion into the full depth of the rifling groove, giving a "driving band" effect and sealing even a Worn or Eroded Bore, thus giving good accuracy with FB bullets. THis carried over to Pointed bullets with Flat bases.
But when Boat-tailed bullets came ito use for Longer range shooting ( around WW I,) it was found that accuracy dropped off as the barrel got worn or eroded...because a Boat-tail does NOT "base-obturate" sufficiently (if at all) to overcome wear and erosion.
The Austrians found this when they developed ( with Swiss Solothurn co-operation) the M30 8x56R cartridge for replacing the older M95 ( actually M93) Austro-Hungarian 8x50R cartridge, which had relied on Base-Upset-Obturation, as it was a Cylindrical RN Bullet...They had to make the Boat tail .329" diameter, the same as the Rifling Groove diameter, to avoid inaccuracy. The original 244 grain Cyl.RN, was .324 diameter, with a slightly cupped base to assist "upset".
SO these days, with Milsurp Lee Enfields (Mostly SMLEs and No4s) which in their service life used Mostly (or exclusively) Cordite based Mark VII ammo, the bore wear pattern will be that of Cordite. The continued use of either Cordite Milsurp Mark VII ( getting scarcer by the day) or its substitute, Mark VIIz loaded with Nitro Powder, (Canadian DIz or Yugo 1980s mil. ammo) will not cause any drop-off in accuracy...but the use of Modern (ie, commercial) Boat tailed projectiles in a .303 rifle will see accuracy problems ( Unless the rifle is an FTR Aussie Lithgow, with a "new" barrel ( ie, without a Cordite Wear Pattern); then the BT will function quite well in a "New" (Little shot) barrel.).
I use both FB and BT bullets in my Ross Mark III ( M1910) Chilean Navy Rifle, but it has a virtually NEW Barrel (made late 1916, and probably little used, even though it has a LC ( Large or lengthened Chamber) Mark, when all the rifles in service on the Western front were withdrawn (1916) from service and allocated to "Other" non-intensive uses (Training, Royal Navy, Tsarist military aid, etc).
The Chilean-marked Ross was part of the "Ships Arms Locker" of the Former HMS Canada, a Cruiser sequestered at the Makers in 1914, from the Chilean Gov't; it was returned to Chile after the war, and served in the Armada de Chile until the 1950s or so. ( Originally it had been equipped with M1912 Steyr Mausers in 7mm...these were allocated to Minesweepers for "Mine sinking" and 7mm ammo supplied by Kynoch and Eley in classic "Gov't " wrappers).
I have found that the Ross, (with its "newish" barrel, shoots just like a "New" Aussie FTR SMLE) but since I don't use Cordite Mark VII in the Ross,
only haldloaded PPYU berdan cases and either FB Mark VII projectiles or PPU new BT projectiles, I haven't seen any drop off in accuarcy ( at least not due to Bore wear.)
The main baseline to this problem is:- If your LE/SMLE/No4 is a worn barrel job ( Cordite) then stick to Flat based Bullets in Handloads and Milsurp.
If it is a "New" barrel Rifle, then either will work, or you can use BT handloads.
Regards,
Doc AV
The problem "Flat based Vs Boat tailed" in LEs is due to a misconception derived from the introduction of the mark VIII (8) bullet in the late 1930s, which was specifically designed for Long range MG use ( as had been developed by other countries as well). It was found that Bore Erosion patterns were differewnt between Cartridges loaded with Cordite and those loaded with Nitro Powder..so much so that Vickers guns which had been fired with a lot of Mark VII Cordite were dangerous to use with Mark VIII ammo, due to bullet inaccuracy caused by the Bore erosion...this was especially so with "Overhead Fire" applications. ( erratic Bullet flight could and did cause Fatalities during training and on the Battlefield to "friendly forces".)
An order was issued that Barrels should be marked "for Mark VII only or for Mark VIII only" when packing barrels in Vickers Guns CES.
The major reason for this problem is "Base Upset Obturation", a principle known since the Cast lead Minie' Bullet days of Muzzle loaders, and utilised during the short period of use of Jacketed Small calibre Round nose Cylindrical bullets...an "under-Groove diameter RN proj. was "bumped up" by the base expansion into the full depth of the rifling groove, giving a "driving band" effect and sealing even a Worn or Eroded Bore, thus giving good accuracy with FB bullets. THis carried over to Pointed bullets with Flat bases.
But when Boat-tailed bullets came ito use for Longer range shooting ( around WW I,) it was found that accuracy dropped off as the barrel got worn or eroded...because a Boat-tail does NOT "base-obturate" sufficiently (if at all) to overcome wear and erosion.
The Austrians found this when they developed ( with Swiss Solothurn co-operation) the M30 8x56R cartridge for replacing the older M95 ( actually M93) Austro-Hungarian 8x50R cartridge, which had relied on Base-Upset-Obturation, as it was a Cylindrical RN Bullet...They had to make the Boat tail .329" diameter, the same as the Rifling Groove diameter, to avoid inaccuracy. The original 244 grain Cyl.RN, was .324 diameter, with a slightly cupped base to assist "upset".
SO these days, with Milsurp Lee Enfields (Mostly SMLEs and No4s) which in their service life used Mostly (or exclusively) Cordite based Mark VII ammo, the bore wear pattern will be that of Cordite. The continued use of either Cordite Milsurp Mark VII ( getting scarcer by the day) or its substitute, Mark VIIz loaded with Nitro Powder, (Canadian DIz or Yugo 1980s mil. ammo) will not cause any drop-off in accuracy...but the use of Modern (ie, commercial) Boat tailed projectiles in a .303 rifle will see accuracy problems ( Unless the rifle is an FTR Aussie Lithgow, with a "new" barrel ( ie, without a Cordite Wear Pattern); then the BT will function quite well in a "New" (Little shot) barrel.).
I use both FB and BT bullets in my Ross Mark III ( M1910) Chilean Navy Rifle, but it has a virtually NEW Barrel (made late 1916, and probably little used, even though it has a LC ( Large or lengthened Chamber) Mark, when all the rifles in service on the Western front were withdrawn (1916) from service and allocated to "Other" non-intensive uses (Training, Royal Navy, Tsarist military aid, etc).
The Chilean-marked Ross was part of the "Ships Arms Locker" of the Former HMS Canada, a Cruiser sequestered at the Makers in 1914, from the Chilean Gov't; it was returned to Chile after the war, and served in the Armada de Chile until the 1950s or so. ( Originally it had been equipped with M1912 Steyr Mausers in 7mm...these were allocated to Minesweepers for "Mine sinking" and 7mm ammo supplied by Kynoch and Eley in classic "Gov't " wrappers).
I have found that the Ross, (with its "newish" barrel, shoots just like a "New" Aussie FTR SMLE) but since I don't use Cordite Mark VII in the Ross,
only haldloaded PPYU berdan cases and either FB Mark VII projectiles or PPU new BT projectiles, I haven't seen any drop off in accuarcy ( at least not due to Bore wear.)
The main baseline to this problem is:- If your LE/SMLE/No4 is a worn barrel job ( Cordite) then stick to Flat based Bullets in Handloads and Milsurp.
If it is a "New" barrel Rifle, then either will work, or you can use BT handloads.
Regards,
Doc AV
Wow!! Like he ^ said.
As it happens, I once asked Joyce Hornady that very question. His explanation was not as detailed as what you have just read, but he said their 150 FMJ would not group as well as their 150 flat base soft point. Testing has verified this many times.
So if you want a cheap, but accurate bullet, the 150 flat base hunting bullet is the way to go.
Unless you have a real good barrel, the 150 and 180 flat base bullet will do better than the 155 and 168 match bullet, too.
I have a number of #4s, and only one of them (a new Irish Contract rifle) shoots best with match (boattail) bullets.
For accurate plinking I now buy bulk Remington or Hornady 150 soft points.
As it happens, I once asked Joyce Hornady that very question. His explanation was not as detailed as what you have just read, but he said their 150 FMJ would not group as well as their 150 flat base soft point. Testing has verified this many times.
So if you want a cheap, but accurate bullet, the 150 flat base hunting bullet is the way to go.
Unless you have a real good barrel, the 150 and 180 flat base bullet will do better than the 155 and 168 match bullet, too.
I have a number of #4s, and only one of them (a new Irish Contract rifle) shoots best with match (boattail) bullets.
For accurate plinking I now buy bulk Remington or Hornady 150 soft points.
