I notice 150's disappear off the shelves faster than 180's. At SIR / Cabella's, you could get Federal 180's last summer for $11.99 a box. They priced them according to when they got them, said the salesman. Maybe 180's tend to be cheaper and more available, and that's why so many buy them for their m14's? I know that's the case for some, as I met a guy at the range who was just firing his Norinco for the 1st time, and had just purchased 20 boxes of 180's. I felt bad telling him that the m14 isn't made to use a large number of 180's. But I'm sure that's why he bought them, better price.
Are the Nork M-14s hard on brass?** updated post#31**
- Thread starter saskgunowner101
- Start date
what should be happening is the guys with the 180's should list them for a FAIR price in the e&e and see if any HUNTERS would like to buy them- or exchange them for 165's or 150s- let's face it about 90 % of big game hunting involves DEER, and far more whitetail than mule- and the 150 is entirely adequate for this- and the 165 may do the job even better, but the 180 is too much for the gun- i ran into something similar when i fired 200 grainers in the savage 99, which eats 180's like crazy- i couldn't get 180s , and handn' yet started rolling my own- theses were cil, and boy , did that rifle ever buck like a unbroke stallion- i didn't even bother to save the cases, as they were black from head to toe -a step more and i'm sure the action would have unlocked and the lug set back
Bent op rods are NOT the only bad thing that can happen when you shoot too powerful loads in an M14. In fact, the shorter M14 op rods are somewhat stronger than the M1 Garand op rods, so are less prone to bending.
1.] the op rod stops the rearward motion when it bangs into the front of the receiver. PEENED op rod ends, shorter spring life, and beat up receivers are the results ... which is why some people use the plastic shock buffers here.
2.] the bolt is supposed to stop travelling to the rear when the rear of the bolt almost hits the bolt cut out recess in the back of the receiver, or just gives it a light kiss. Heavier loads mean heavier 'kisses", and cracked receivers or beat up bolts can occur.
3.] the bolt roller can crack or wear rather quickly
4.] if the op rod is not true with the receiver [ or rattling around due to a loose op rod guide ], the rather small op rod tab can wear quickly, and may jump out of the track.
There are ways to modify the gas system to shoot heavier loads, and some of these are even adjustable, so you can still shoot normal loads as well.
PS: some of the .308 WIN 165 Hi Performance "duplex" loads claim to match .30-06 velocities with "normal" SAAMI .308 pressures. The pressures may be normal measured at the chamber, but I suspect the powder charge is burning longer, and the pressure at the gas port, which is what really matters, is probably higher. Same effect can occur if you load with SLOW powders [ with retardents ]. chamber pressures may be normal, but the all important PORT pressure might be higher than desired.
as always,
YPMMV
[;{)
LAZ 1
1.] the op rod stops the rearward motion when it bangs into the front of the receiver. PEENED op rod ends, shorter spring life, and beat up receivers are the results ... which is why some people use the plastic shock buffers here.
2.] the bolt is supposed to stop travelling to the rear when the rear of the bolt almost hits the bolt cut out recess in the back of the receiver, or just gives it a light kiss. Heavier loads mean heavier 'kisses", and cracked receivers or beat up bolts can occur.
3.] the bolt roller can crack or wear rather quickly
4.] if the op rod is not true with the receiver [ or rattling around due to a loose op rod guide ], the rather small op rod tab can wear quickly, and may jump out of the track.
There are ways to modify the gas system to shoot heavier loads, and some of these are even adjustable, so you can still shoot normal loads as well.
PS: some of the .308 WIN 165 Hi Performance "duplex" loads claim to match .30-06 velocities with "normal" SAAMI .308 pressures. The pressures may be normal measured at the chamber, but I suspect the powder charge is burning longer, and the pressure at the gas port, which is what really matters, is probably higher. Same effect can occur if you load with SLOW powders [ with retardents ]. chamber pressures may be normal, but the all important PORT pressure might be higher than desired.
as always,
YPMMV
[;{)
LAZ 1
Wild_Thing
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- In the thick of it!
My first 2007 was a bit of a brass mangler. Used to put a nice permanent bend in the case rim with Fed or Win 150 gr. commercial ammo, Milsurp as well, though to a lesser extent. My other M14s and M305 are much more brass friendly.
Couple questions, has anyone in this forum ever actually experienced any of these "problems" like bent rods, etc, from shooting 180 grain bullets through their M14's?
And, if these M14's (Norinco's) are built to their 1960's counterparts specs, shouldnt you only shoot Military ammo under 165 grains, (which they were built to shoot), instead of the commercial loads that usually have higher pressures, from say Federal and Winchester?
There seems to be alot of contradictory statements on this site, Ive heard people say they have put 1000's of 180 commercial loads through Norinco's with no problem at all, and I also heard alot of people claim it will basically destroy the gun, I have put a box of 180's through mine, seemed to shoot and cycle fine, didnt notice any unusual wear on any of the parts etc, just asking because there seems to be alot of "hearsay".
And, if these M14's (Norinco's) are built to their 1960's counterparts specs, shouldnt you only shoot Military ammo under 165 grains, (which they were built to shoot), instead of the commercial loads that usually have higher pressures, from say Federal and Winchester?
There seems to be alot of contradictory statements on this site, Ive heard people say they have put 1000's of 180 commercial loads through Norinco's with no problem at all, and I also heard alot of people claim it will basically destroy the gun, I have put a box of 180's through mine, seemed to shoot and cycle fine, didnt notice any unusual wear on any of the parts etc, just asking because there seems to be alot of "hearsay".
one box is NOT going to do anything- it's the REPEATED use of a "heavy" bullet that causes problems, and those problems compound every time you fire the gun after a certain point- ie the "life" of the gun will be much shorter
as far as "thousands" of rounds goes. a thousand rounds is 50 BOXES and the guy that uses that kind of ammo in a year or two is either a VERY avid shooter or something else- most of us don't have that much time or money
guys like laz , m14doctor( 45acpking) hungry, and a few others that skip my mind at the moment( forgive me) have knowledge that has built up either through experience or have gleaned it from other shooters- remember, the m14 was THE competition rifle platform in the states for a very long time and they TRIED all the different combinations of powder, bullets, etc to make those rifles shoot better- and they documented their parts failures and modifications along the way- if i remember correctly , they went as high as 190 grains in one instance,in order to get to that "magic" 1000 yard range
they eventually settled on the 175 grain matchking, at 2550 fps, and then noticed it began to "wear out "oprods more quickly than normal- hence, 175 was established as the top end , provided you were prepared to replace the oprod - and these guys carry a full complement of spare parts at all times
in order to get the wear back to normal, the 168 is considered top end and the 165 for hunting- and oprods can cost as much as the rifle- get a hold of different's hardcover book and your questions will be answered more fully
Its cool, I was just looking for some first hand accounts, Id be lucky if I shoot a box of ammo a year out of mine, and I try to just shoot the federal 150's, the only reason I shot 180's the one day is because the 150's are usually sold out, I prefer my SKS just because its a heck of alot cheaper to shoot lol thanks dude.
If you are NOT shooting reloaded ammo in your 14,
the simple answer about headspace in the Chinese M14 clones,
is stop worrying, and get out and shoot.
BUT,
if you want to reload for the M14,
KNOW WHAT YOUR HEADSPACE IS,
understand the differences between a 7.62 NATO and a .308 Win CARTRIDGE CASE,
AND UNDERSTANDTHE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HEADSPACE AND CASE STRETCH!
At my last clinic we checked headspace on eight M14 rifles, all Chinese, varying from brand new out of the box 2007 Norcs, and a brand new 2009 Bell/Poly, to well shot, customised, etc.
After careful inspection of the bolt lugs, to confirm that both lugs were touching the receiver, and that the bolts were wearing evenly ... aka ... straight with the bore, then and only then, are you ready to start checking headspace
Headspace was checked using two 7.62 NATO gages, cut out for the M14 ejector, so we did not have to strip the bolts.
7.62 GO gage was marked as 1.6315",
which would be my MINIMUM recommendation for a carefully cleaned rifle, shooting clean 7.62 ammo, or commercial .308 WIN ammo. I would use this tight dimensioned chamber quite cheerfully because, unlike what the military expects and plans for, I do clean my rifles every year or so ...
whether they need it or not.
7.62 NO GO gage was marked at 1.640",
which is exactly .010" larger than .308 Win GO, and about .004" longer than SAAMI .308 NO GO. This 1.640" dimension is approximately .004" UNDER what the military considers the absolute bitter end for a 7.62 NATO chambered rifle.
This NO GO is good enough for govt work ...
especially for us civilians who will NEVER abuse our rifles like the military expects and plans for.
Of the eight rifles checked, all were between 7.62 GO, and 7.62 NO GO,
with only two closing TIGHT on the NO GO gage, with absolutely no room for any play.
Draw your own personal conclusions from this ...
but personally,
Even though this is a bit more than the SAAMI "Lawyer Proof" standards for .308 WIN, I would shoot NEW comercially loaded .308 AMMO, or 7.62 NATO BALL ammo, out of any of the 14s we saw at the clinic, without any worries about a NEW case, .308 or 7.62, ever seperating. In fact, I have personally shot NEW commercially loaded .308 Win 168 Gr HPBT match out of a brand new out of the box Chinese M14 rifle with a measured headspace of 1.645", and not only do I still have both of my eyeballs, but the rifle shot a few sub-MOA groups.
Not that I recommend this practice to anyone else,
but
BTDT personally on a few occassions,
and still no seperated cases.
STOP WORRYING ABOUT EXCESS HEADSPACE IN THE M14.
If you really want something to worry about,
think about bolt/receiver/firing pin timing,
and SLAMFIRES.
Remember please,
headspace is just one small part of the safety inspection for your M14 rifles.
And remember,
while long headspace with NEW cartridges in the M14 hasn't hurt anyone yet that we can document,
SLAMFIRES,
caused by too tight a chamber,
too long reloads,
dirty chamber,
stuck firing pin,
broken firing pin,
poor receiver bridge,
too much firing pin extrusion,
improper firing pin tip [ at the front or especially at the rear ]
etc, Etc, ETC,
potentially CAN cause a catastrophic M14 Kaboom.
Of all the M14 rifles we checked for receiver bridge/bolt lug/firing pin timing, two were a bit scary, and might allow a firing pin into the primer a bit sooner than we would prefer. All the Chinese firing pins we checked were ground at the proper angle, but were ground deeper than the NEW GI firing pin we looked at. In fact, all of the 14s at the seminar could have tightened up the firing pin/bolt lug safety margin a bit by swapping in a NEW GI firing pin.
AS if anyone really cares??
PS: Throwing in a NEW GI firing pin MAY help a bit with increasing the safety margin of the timing of your Chinese M14 rifle, but once agin,
this is NOT a simple thing to do,
unless you understand the relationship between firing pin maximum protrusion, firing pin length, and the rear tip of the firing pin, you might want to get a genuine M14 Gunsmiter to do this for you.
Or come to the seminars and learn about it ...
There!
Now we can all stop worrying about headspace in the M14 ...
and go on to worrying about bolt lug depth/receiver bridge wear or out of spec/worn or too long firing pins,
etc.
I hope this helps everyoine sleep better at nights,
if so,
then my work here is done!
[;{)
LAZ 1
the simple answer about headspace in the Chinese M14 clones,
is stop worrying, and get out and shoot.
BUT,
if you want to reload for the M14,
KNOW WHAT YOUR HEADSPACE IS,
understand the differences between a 7.62 NATO and a .308 Win CARTRIDGE CASE,
AND UNDERSTANDTHE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HEADSPACE AND CASE STRETCH!
At my last clinic we checked headspace on eight M14 rifles, all Chinese, varying from brand new out of the box 2007 Norcs, and a brand new 2009 Bell/Poly, to well shot, customised, etc.
After careful inspection of the bolt lugs, to confirm that both lugs were touching the receiver, and that the bolts were wearing evenly ... aka ... straight with the bore, then and only then, are you ready to start checking headspace
Headspace was checked using two 7.62 NATO gages, cut out for the M14 ejector, so we did not have to strip the bolts.
7.62 GO gage was marked as 1.6315",
which would be my MINIMUM recommendation for a carefully cleaned rifle, shooting clean 7.62 ammo, or commercial .308 WIN ammo. I would use this tight dimensioned chamber quite cheerfully because, unlike what the military expects and plans for, I do clean my rifles every year or so ...
whether they need it or not.
7.62 NO GO gage was marked at 1.640",
which is exactly .010" larger than .308 Win GO, and about .004" longer than SAAMI .308 NO GO. This 1.640" dimension is approximately .004" UNDER what the military considers the absolute bitter end for a 7.62 NATO chambered rifle.
This NO GO is good enough for govt work ...
especially for us civilians who will NEVER abuse our rifles like the military expects and plans for.
Of the eight rifles checked, all were between 7.62 GO, and 7.62 NO GO,
with only two closing TIGHT on the NO GO gage, with absolutely no room for any play.
Draw your own personal conclusions from this ...
but personally,
Even though this is a bit more than the SAAMI "Lawyer Proof" standards for .308 WIN, I would shoot NEW comercially loaded .308 AMMO, or 7.62 NATO BALL ammo, out of any of the 14s we saw at the clinic, without any worries about a NEW case, .308 or 7.62, ever seperating. In fact, I have personally shot NEW commercially loaded .308 Win 168 Gr HPBT match out of a brand new out of the box Chinese M14 rifle with a measured headspace of 1.645", and not only do I still have both of my eyeballs, but the rifle shot a few sub-MOA groups.
Not that I recommend this practice to anyone else,
but
BTDT personally on a few occassions,
and still no seperated cases.
STOP WORRYING ABOUT EXCESS HEADSPACE IN THE M14.
If you really want something to worry about,
think about bolt/receiver/firing pin timing,
and SLAMFIRES.
Remember please,
headspace is just one small part of the safety inspection for your M14 rifles.
And remember,
while long headspace with NEW cartridges in the M14 hasn't hurt anyone yet that we can document,
SLAMFIRES,
caused by too tight a chamber,
too long reloads,
dirty chamber,
stuck firing pin,
broken firing pin,
poor receiver bridge,
too much firing pin extrusion,
improper firing pin tip [ at the front or especially at the rear ]
etc, Etc, ETC,
potentially CAN cause a catastrophic M14 Kaboom.
Of all the M14 rifles we checked for receiver bridge/bolt lug/firing pin timing, two were a bit scary, and might allow a firing pin into the primer a bit sooner than we would prefer. All the Chinese firing pins we checked were ground at the proper angle, but were ground deeper than the NEW GI firing pin we looked at. In fact, all of the 14s at the seminar could have tightened up the firing pin/bolt lug safety margin a bit by swapping in a NEW GI firing pin.
AS if anyone really cares??
PS: Throwing in a NEW GI firing pin MAY help a bit with increasing the safety margin of the timing of your Chinese M14 rifle, but once agin,
this is NOT a simple thing to do,
unless you understand the relationship between firing pin maximum protrusion, firing pin length, and the rear tip of the firing pin, you might want to get a genuine M14 Gunsmiter to do this for you.
Or come to the seminars and learn about it ...
There!
Now we can all stop worrying about headspace in the M14 ...
and go on to worrying about bolt lug depth/receiver bridge wear or out of spec/worn or too long firing pins,
etc.
I hope this helps everyoine sleep better at nights,
if so,
then my work here is done!
[;{)
LAZ 1
Tstar ... good post,
thanks for saving me the time to say the same things.
PS: as mentioned previously ?elsewhere? in another M14 thread, some gas pistons have been grooved to allow some excess gas to escape, which can make the heavier loads much safer to shoot in your M14. There are other ways to modify the 14 gas system to shoot heavier loads.
But be warned, the range of pressure required to cycle an M14 is rather narrow, and any such tweaks may affect the reliable cycling with regular or lighter loads.
[:{)
LAZ 1
thanks for saving me the time to say the same things.
PS: as mentioned previously ?elsewhere? in another M14 thread, some gas pistons have been grooved to allow some excess gas to escape, which can make the heavier loads much safer to shoot in your M14. There are other ways to modify the 14 gas system to shoot heavier loads.
But be warned, the range of pressure required to cycle an M14 is rather narrow, and any such tweaks may affect the reliable cycling with regular or lighter loads.
[:{)
LAZ 1
saskgunowner101
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- near Prince Albert
Final update....it never was the rifle....the rest of the unfired ammo all has the goofy looking neck right out of the box.
Has anyone ever dealt with Winchester about lousy ammo??
Has anyone ever dealt with Winchester about lousy ammo??yea, but it's been rimfire and ftfs- but they were fair about it and good pics might at least get you a cheque for another box of ammo, along with a scan of the receipt- most of the large ammo companies are like that- if they don't respond you're out what? NOTHING
as a personal note, i use the old m118 slr load- it's exactly the same as the m118 lr load, but uses a 168 grain smk instead of the 175 - ie it's easier on the rifle- it's been taken off the net, but the recipe was cci magnum primer, lake city case, 43.9 to 44 grains of ww748, and the 168 grain smk - in my rifles, this produces quarter sized shot groups at 100 yards for all 20 cartridges, when we could shoot such things,over all 4 rifles- just change the bullet to 165 for hunting
oh and slr?= SPECIAL LONG RANGE- special, meaning that it was DEVELOPED FOR THE M14 instead of the m24
the only deviance is i use a remmy or winny case- lake city is somewhat hard to find
oh and slr?= SPECIAL LONG RANGE- special, meaning that it was DEVELOPED FOR THE M14 instead of the m24
the only deviance is i use a remmy or winny case- lake city is somewhat hard to find
Final update....it never was the rifle....the rest of the unfired ammo all has the goofy looking neck right out of the box.
yeah, that ring is the way winchester crimps some of their ammo, the only ammo I've had crimped that way was the cheapest winchester 150gr 308win.
After a couple reloadings, the brass has stretched enough (If shot through the m14), and hopefully you trimmed it to proper lenght and will see no traces of the 4 stripes crimp.
Experts could chime in, but I don't think it's badly made ammo, it's just stuff you don't see from every manufacturers
