Are Vetterli considered antiques

D

danyboy

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I was wondering, since Vetterli stopped production of firearms and ammo in 1889 (ref: Cartridge of the world) and that they were rimfire, wouldn't they be considered as antiques ? The NFA were supposed to get back to me but never did.
 
Vetterli

THE QUICK ANSWER.

The 11mm or .43 Calibre Vetterli rifle, IF ORIGINAL, is considered an Antique and does not need to be registered. Rimfire ammo not generally available.

HOWEVER, some people have converted these to center fire and made up cases from .348 Winchester brass and .44 Calibre lead bullets. These are considered as a modified rifle and they are supposed to be registered.

The Vetterli was also made in 6.5 Calibre and is to be registered as ammunition is still available.

.
 
Italian Vetterli Model 1871/87 repeaters in 11mm centerfire also must be registered.
 
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All rimfire rifles, greater than .22, made prior to 1898 are deemed antiques. Ammunition availabilty, as mentionned, is irrelevant. Unless you are looking for fresh factory ammuition to shoot.
No reason to ask the NFA, just look at the actual law - or the stickies in this forum.
An Italian Vetterli in 6.5 is not a deemed antique, even if converted before 1898, because a) it is a repeater, and b) it is less than 8.3mm in bore diameter.
 
Someone was selling one on the ee a while back that was sporterized and the quality of work seemed pretty nice, he had converted it to centerfire and removed the magazine, so it was deemed an antique. That would have been a nice little woods hunting rifle, from what I have heard, they can be loaded close to .44 magnum specs with the right powder and bullet. I like them myself. Hows bout you get someone to make up some custom cases with off-center primer cups to accept a rimfire blank. Then it would be perfectly legal, although you would only be able to single load them for obvious reasons. It might be easier to disable the magazine and convert it to centerfire.

Edit: iirc, the Vetterli firing pin has two points, the other pin strikes 180 degrees from the other one at the rim.
 
buffdog said:
THE QUICK ANSWER.

HOWEVER, some people have converted these to center fire and made up cases from .348 Winchester brass and .44 Calibre lead bullets. These are considered as a modified rifle and they are supposed to be registered.

.
Click to expand...

This ia misleading statement there is no provisions in the FA or criminal code that exclude "modifying" the rifle. There are tons of prescribed antique rifles that were modified in their day and in modern day that meet the definition of antique. The rule is simply:

•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges;

•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine
Shotguns:
 
apu said:
This ia misleading statement there is no provisions in the FA or criminal code that exclude "modifying" the rifle. There are tons of prescribed antique rifles that were modified in their day and in modern day that meet the definition of antique. The rule is simply:

•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges;

•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine
Shotguns:
Click to expand...

I'd love to rebarrel one of my antiques to 30-06 and convert it to a magazine fed 10 shot - good to know it would remain an antique. :rolleyes:

Maybe you're a lawyer who's expert in Firearms Laws, but I'm sure not going to confidently modify my antiques however I wish, and take your word that it's ok.
 
Andy said:
I'd love to rebarrel one of my antiques to 30-06 and convert it to a magazine fed 10 shot - good to know it would remain an antique. :rolleyes:

Maybe you're a lawyer who's expert in Firearms Laws, but I'm sure not going to confidently modify my antiques however I wish, and take your word that it's ok.
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Andy, with all due deference, I made very specific reference to modification in context of what current legislation defines a rifle(rimfire or centerfire) as prescribed antique. I would have tought you appreciated that with the included text from the RCMP fact sheet.

The example you suggested would obviously never fly, but a rebrarrel of a pre 1898 rolling block to any centerfire caliber 8.3mm or greater would be legit. Or to perhaps suggest that 1861 Springfield musket could never be considered a prescribed antique because at somepoint in 1866 it was "modified" to discharge a centerfire round, really?? I even understand from other members posts that a 71/88 mauser with a welded /disabled magazine/follower has received blessings from the CFC for deregistration.

Instead of cast aspersions do everyone that reads these confusing posts a service and point out in the laws/regs that show my thinking about "modification" are flawed. I am certainly no expert and I am not adverse to being appropriately re-educated :). I would encourage anyone if in doubt call CFC tech and verify facts for themselves.
 
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Re - the 71/84 being altered to single shot and being deregistered - was this recently, or quite some time ago? I know of another situation where deregistration was refused.
 
The original context in which I responded was your response to this:

buffdog said:
HOWEVER, some people have converted these to center fire and made up cases from .348 Winchester brass and .44 Calibre lead bullets. These are considered as a modified rifle and they are supposed to be registered.
Click to expand...

You seemed to suggest that what he said was incorrect and I disagree (I say it's correct).

apu said:
Andy, with all due deference, I made very specific reference to modification in context of what current legislation defines a rifle(rimfire or centerfire) as prescribed antique. I would have tought you appreciated that with the included text from the RCMP fact sheet.

The example you suggested would obviously never fly, but a rebrarrel of a pre 1898 rolling block to any centerfire caliber 8.3mm or greater would be legit. Or to perhaps suggest that 1861 Springfield musket could never be considered a prescribed antique because at somepoint in 1866 it was "modified" to discharge a centerfire round, really?? I even understand from other members posts that a 71/88 mauser with a welded /disabled magazine/follower has received blessings from the CFC for deregistration.

Instead of cast aspersions do everyone that reads these confusing posts a service and point out in the laws/regs that show my thinking about "modification" are flawed. I am certainly no expert and I am not adverse to being appropriately re-educated :). I would encourage anyone if in doubt call CFC tech and verify facts for themselves.
Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer and neither do I play one on CGN, so I could well be mistaken, but my advice would not put someone in contravention of any laws.

There is a belief in certain quarters that:

- "you can turn a non-antique into an antique" (and back again I suppose); and

- "once an antique, always an antique regardless of the modifications you make to it". I'm not saying that no mods are allowed, I'm saying some are not.

I don't believe either case (the parts in "") to be true. The most common example of the former that I've encountered is the Mauser M71/84 "converted to single hsot", but someone recently suggested that a Swiss Vetterli converted to centerfire and then to a single shot remains an antique.
 
As long as it met the three basic requirements, it would be an antique.

Pre-1898
Bore over 8.3mm
Not a repeater from a magazine. (doubles, etc,dont coun't as magazine fed)
Gotta be all three.


I'd wonder if the modification to single shot, that was reputedly refused, did not meet the approval of the guy that decides such things (RCMP tech?) (not a permanent mod?)so they refused and the owner just didn't have the fight in him.

Converting an Antique to non-antique status, obviously wouldn't fly. Like rebarreling it to, say, 30-06, and putting a ten round mag on it.

But there are a lot of non-Antiques that get turned into Antiques. Every guy that rebarrels a Rolling block to a big BP cartridge, or reams out the cylinders of a 38 Colt to .41 LC, does just that. Or in the case of some revolvers, they swap out the parts. They can swap them back in and register them as easily, I suppose.

Cheers
Trev
 
Andy said:
...There is a belief in certain quarters that:
- "you can turn a non-antique into an antique" (and back again I suppose); and...

I don't believe either case (the parts in "") to be true.
Click to expand...

So how do we explain all these colt SAA antiques that were converted from .45colt to .45 acp, and .44 wcf to .44 special? Before the modifications they are not prescribed antiques. After modifications they are prescribed antiques and the CFP does issue antique letters for them. That is a fact, not a belief.

A single shot rifle might be reclassified if all the other conditions are met. For instance - i know of remington rolling block rifles that were reclassified as antique when they were rebarreled and converted from .22 rimfire to a centrefire cartridge larger than 8.3 mm. That is fact, not a belief.

I have not heard of ANY centrefire repeating rifle that has been reclassified to antique status. I assumed any firearm listed as a repeater in the FRT would not able to be reclassifed regardless of modifications that were performed. However, this is only my assumption and i do not know it to be fact.
 
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