Asking all S&W M&P owners...

I have the CZ Shadow and my son has the IWI Jericho. Because the Shadow has a better front sight and trigger, I believe the Shadow will be easier to shoot accurately. However, they are virtually the same gun. When I clean them (he is too lazy to clean his own gun) I am looking at exactly the same configuration internally. We even swap the magazines as they both fit. Al Flaherty has a sale. For your first handgun, you will not be disappointed with the Jericho.

http://www.alflahertys.com/products/iwi-jericho-941-baby-eagle-range-kit
 
My 9L Pro CORE shoots very well. I like the trigger better than the Glock offering, but it still sucks. The striker fire is better than many DA triggers, but will never rival most SA pulls. A tweaked Apex FSS trigger (2 lb pull) is as good as any trigger out there, but would not be allowed for some competition divisions. FWIW, I purchased a KKM (match grade) threaded barrel for a project build, a compensated open gun - I needed threads. Even though KKM barrel is longer, the M&P 9L barrel is definitely more accurate at longer distances.

Most guns are better than the operator. Most operators work better with a gun that fits/suits them. You have to figure the second part out before you spend all your money on the wrong guns.
 
I've been around dozens of M&P 9s Dan and not one shooter complained about his gun, they only ship the good ones to Canada. I think that the CZ SP 01 arrived far to late for a "commie" tag. It is a great gun, I have one as well.
 
Most of the issues surrounding the 9MM version arose from the use of a 1 - 18 twist barrel in their first years of production. Smith has since moved to a 1 - 10 barrel. My 5" Pro is more accurate with the 1-10 barrel off a bench than it was with the slower twist 1-18 barrel using 125 gr/147 gr bullets. I am not sure most would notice the difference shooting free style fast as in playing the games but the faster twist did improve the accuracy using 125/147 gr bullets.

I am sure there are many folks who will come on and claim they have been shooting Bullseye since Christ was a Corporal and the gun either shoots lights out or it is a poorly fitted drain pipe with a firing pin.

The gun has been in use around the world in various police agencies and seems to have held up well. It is a combat pistol designed for the LEO/Military market. The gun has found a place in action shooting sports. It along with the Glock dominate the major IDPA matches. If you are buying this gun as your Olympic slow fire side arm you are going to be disappointed. If you are out to destroy tin cans, steel targets and paper/cardboard targets the M&P will serve you well. I have not met many shooters that will or can out shoot the gun but then I have not done much research either.

I have two 9MM and two 40 cal M&P's. The two PROs have been modified by Apex parts because my ego and bank book said I should and could. I am not sure my targets have seen much difference but I do like the lighter crisper triggers.

Personally I think the accuracy issues were and are over stated. Apex makes a living "improving" and "correcting" issues with the gun which might have some influence on their concerns. I have the "Competition Kit" in my 9MM PRO and their FSS Kit in my 40 PRO and their products are excellent. Necessary???

The production of "lemons" is probably no better or worse than other American gun manufacturers so you pay your money and take your chances. Folks will write volumes about bad service or poor quality but few get around to writing about good service and satisfactory quality. Too, we all have our own bias which influences our opinions.

Take Care

Bob
 
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danthegoodman said:
I hear a lot of people rooting for CZ but for some reason some deep down gut feeling doesn't make me want to trust some eastern bloc company that makes clones. What is so great about them?
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Really? I am sure the Czech population would find such a comment insulting in the extreme. You might want to read up on the history of the The Czech Republic and the long history of the the CZ company. Personally I would list their rifles, pistols and their Turkish made shotguns sold to the general public to be at the top end on informed shooters want list. If the gun fits your requirements then buying a CZ product being the Shadow or their .22LR rifles would be a no brainer for most.

What clones do you think CZ makes?

Take Care

Bob
 
I have an M&P Pro 9mm…It shoots much better than I ever could lol Mine Likes the 147Gr (heavier bullets) results for me were like night and day.
 
Canuck44 said:
Really? I am sure the Czech population would find such a comment insulting in the extreme. You might want to read up on the history of the The Czech Republic and the long history of the the CZ company. Personally I would list their rifles, pistols and their Turkish made shotguns sold to the general public to be at the top end on informed shooters want list. If the gun fits your requirements then buying a CZ product being the Shadow or their .22LR rifles would be a no brainer for most.

What clones do you think CZ makes?

Take Care

Bob
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No offense intended towards anyone, but being born and raised in Germany that makes me look at the European map a little different, and Czech was Communist and part of the Iron Curtain even if it was against their wishes. Now that said, I never meant "commie" as an insult even, but as a point as to where it comes from rather. The AK is a great "commie" platform for example. Like I said excuse my ignorance about CZ, its just one of those gun makers whose name doesn't pop up as often as the others in popular layman terms.

Butcherbill said:
The m&p is a great first handgun, that being said the CZ sp-01, 75 or 85 combat are even nicer. Nothing wrong with Cz pistols, there's a reason you'll see a ton of people shooting them in ipsc.

What you should do is find a range that will rent you handguns to try, pick your top 5 9mm's and see which you like the most. My top three were cz, ppq & m&p, I picked the m&p9 after shooting all three.
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Yeah I rented handguns a couple of times, and shot a few from friends too. Only one I haven't yet was a CZ. Defs know I am not a Glock guy tho. Loved the Sig, but its pricey, which makes me hesitant spending a grant on a Shadow which I know nothing about when I could be getting a Sig for almost same price.

Canuck44 said:
Most of the issues surrounding the 9MM version arose from the use of a 1 - 18 twist barrel in their first years of production. Smith has since moved to a 1 - 10 barrel. My 5" Pro is more accurate with the 1-10 barrel off a bench than it was with the slower twist 1-18 barrel using 125 gr/147 gr bullets. I am not sure most would notice the difference shooting free style fast as in playing the games but the faster twist did improve the accuracy using 125/147 gr bullets.

I am sure there are many folks who will come on and claim they have been shooting Bullseye since Christ was a Corporal and the gun either shoots lights out or it is a poorly fitted drain pipe with a firing pin.

The gun has been in use around the world in various police agencies and seems to have held up well. It is a combat pistol designed for the LEO/Military market. The gun has found a place in action shooting sports. It along with the Glock dominate the major IDPA matches. If you are buying this gun as your Olympic slow fire side arm you are going to be disappointed. If you are out to destroy tin cans, steel targets and paper/cardboard targets the M&P will serve you well. I have not met many shooters that will or can out shoot the gun but then I have not done much research either.

I have two 9MM and two 40 cal M&P's. The two PROs have been modified by Apex parts because my ego and bank book said I should and could. I am not sure my targets have seen much difference but I do like the lighter crisper triggers.

Personally I think the accuracy issues were and are over stated. Apex makes a living "improving" and "correcting" issues with the gun which might have some influence on their concerns. I have the "Competition Kit" in my 9MM PRO and their FSS Kit in my 40 PRO and their products are excellent. Necessary???

The production of "lemons" is probably no better or worse than other American gun manufacturers so you pay your money and take your chances. Folks will write volumes about bad service or poor quality but few get around to writing about good service and satisfactory quality. Too, we all have our own bias which influences our opinions.

Take Care

Bob
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Definitely truth in that, read the magical date was july 2012? IIRC when they made some major changes. I'll give it another look.

Ahh the damn Paradox of choice going at it again.
 
The Shadow is a great pistol. Personally I could not find much advantage to having the rail and FLDC on the gun and much prefer the looks of the 75 Shadowline/New Edition and the 85 Combat over the SP-01 Shadowline. I am sure there are lots of folks who derive some benefit tho. I just am not satisfied I did so I went for looks and a slightly lighter gun.

The Shadow will, from my experience out shoot the M&P from a rest and in the hands of a better shooter out shoot the M&P free style as well. No matter, for IDPA, where you don't have a 1st lb trigger pull requirement, the M&P does have the advantage of a constant SA striker pull.

You can get a pretty good deals on the SIG 226 on the EE here. I just did and quickly found out what a great pistol it is. Mine is an outstanding platform and may become my go to gun once I get a few more mags for it.

Good luck on your quest. You can't go wrong with any of the mainstream guns these days. If you choose the M&P you will have a VG platform, easy to work on and dead nuts reliable. Used ones are priced quite low and provide good value.

Take Care

Bob
 
I had issues with the gen 1 barrel (bought in 2006) using 147gr. Would do like 8" groups @ 25m. I replaced it with a newer barrel (2 dots) and it's down to 2-3" @25 when I'm on my game. I have 2 newer ones that came with one and 2 dot barrels and they shoot fine with 147
 
volitaire said:
I had issues with the gen 1 barrel (bought in 2006) using 147gr. Would do like 8" groups @ 25m. I replaced it with a newer barrel (2 dots) and it's down to 2-3" @25 when I'm on my game. I have 2 newer ones that came with one and 2 dot barrels and they shoot fine with 147
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Dots? Where?

M
 
danthegoodman said:
No offense intended towards anyone, but being born and raised in Germany that makes me look at the European map a little different, and Czech was Communist and part of the Iron Curtain even if it was against their wishes. Now that said, I never meant "commie" as an insult even, but as a point as to where it comes from rather. The AK is a great "commie" platform for example. Like I said excuse my ignorance about CZ, its just one of those gun makers whose name doesn't pop up as often as the others in popular layman terms.
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You may want to look at a map from that era. Are you familiar with the country formally known as "East Germany" or the GDR? The Czechs weren't the only ones with unwanted guests.

Google "Jeff Cooper CZ 75" for background and a touch of self-punishment. I don't think anyone hated commies as much as the ol' Colonel save for maybe John Wayne.

:d

Back on topic, a few guys said get a gun that fits and that you can shoot well. Great advice.
 
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Johnny Boom said:
You may want to look at a map from that era. Are you familiar with the country formally known as "East Germany" or the GDR? The Czechs weren't the only ones with unwanted guests.

Google "Jeff Cooper CZ 75" for background and a touch of self-punishment. I don't think anyone hated commies as much as the ol' Colonel save for maybe John Wayne.

:d

Back on topic, a few guys said get a gun that fits and that you can shoot well. Great advice.
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Hence I said, as a German I look at the European map a little different. GDR; in german DDR, is eastern German. Aka Commie bloc. Kinda like quebec french canadians vs english canadians. Scottish vs brits, we got a little feud going. That being said, I am not saying they don't make good weapons, however In general search and layman's terms I tend to lean towards to more popular battle proven handguns mainly made by western countries. Choosing between a 1k dollars FN/Sig/Beretta with known military history vs a 1k dollars heavy all steel commie bloc gun only known well in certain areas and shooting circles, the bias and choice would be obvious. I'll just have to handle one, however I am not a fan of heavy pistols, nor long ones, so polymer and compact would be a nicer choice for me.
 
You can get a 75B which really is the SP-01 Shadow without a full length dust cover and a trigger job for under $700 on the EE if you look. I got a virtually new one for $500 last fall. The 75 B is an excellent proven design but it does come from the Czech Republic. I know the Beretta has a following but IMHO is not in the same league as the CZ 75 design. The US Army uses the 92. That doesn't make the gun special it just acknowledges the fact Italy had a location for a US Navy base. The SIG is excellent but more money than a Shadow.

By "shooting circles" are you referring to the planet as a whole and the fact it is round. Unless you are planning to raise an Army and are faced with budget constraints what military forces uses for weapons would be the last test I would apply when it comes to buying my first or last handgun.

Take Care

Bob
 
danthegoodman said:
Well my first 9mm will be my first restricted fire arm ever (just waiting on damn license to get approved, hopefully only a few weeks left), so I am doing extensive research on various pistols before I throw a grant into the wind. It will take me a lot of practice to pull off 3" groups at 25yds, however i dont want to spend 800+ after tax on a pistol that might be a total lemon and I cant even get a refund.
I guess I'll scratch the M&P off the list as it is a bit too much of a risk to throw my gun savings out on something this iffy.

I hear a lot of people rooting for CZ but for some reason some deep down gut feeling doesn't make me want to trust some eastern bloc company that makes clones. What is so great about them?

Damn I thought I figured it out all out with the FNS but they only sell the honking huge long slide version. Maybe just gonna save up for a P226.
Ideas?
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With all due respect, theres a lot to address here:
-you may want to do a few more internet searches on cz to form a more educated opinion. lots of companies make clones of czs.
-if this is your first pistol, i promise the crappy groups will be you, not the gun.
-3" groups at 25 yards is hard with most combat handguns unless you have been at it for years and years.
-also, a long slide may help with the laser like precision you require from your handgun.
-if you think 800 for a gun is a lot, wait till you realize how much you need to spend in ammo to get competent, let alone the level you want to get to.

By "shooting circles" are you referring to the planet as a whole and the fact it is round
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good one Bob

Back on topic, a few guys said get a gun that fits and that you can shoot well. Great advice.
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This is the way to go. Please consider this advice.
 
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My experience is with more recently produced M&P 9mm pro's.

In my experience, from a bench there are more accurate pistols than the M&P 9mm.

However, it really does shoot accurately enough, and from my experience I have found that the excellent m&p ergonomics allow shooters to shoot very well with it, myself included, perhaps even better than they would shoot other pistols.

Recoil management is excellent as is the point-ability.
 
auracle said:
With all due respect, theres a lot to address here:
-you may want to do a few more internet searches on cz to form a more educated opinion. lots of companies make clones of czs.
-if this is your first pistol, i promise the crappy groups will be you, not the gun.
-3" groups at 25 yards is hard with most combat handguns unless you have been at it for years and years.
-also, a long slide may help with the laser like precision you require from your handgun.
-if you think 800 for a gun is a lot, wait till you realize how much you need to spend in ammo to get competent, let alone the level you want to get to.

good one Bob

This is the way to go. Please consider this advice.
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Never counted out the CZ, nor am I bashing it. Actually with such strong feelings coming from people here I am defs considering it. The Baby Eagle sparked my interest too cost wise.
Not claiming to do 3" groups for a while.
800 is a considerable chunk of cash from a paycheck for a one time purchase, while ammo can be acquired in bits here and there. Not even trying to cheap out, I would be willing to put down a grant for a pistol even if its a must, however the shadow ranging from 999-1050 and some Sig 226 models going from 1050-1100 I'll have to make a good decision.

Canuck44 said:
You can get a 75B which really is the SP-01 Shadow without a full length dust cover and a trigger job for under $700 on the EE if you look. I got a virtually new one for $500 last fall. The 75 B is an excellent proven design but it does come from the Czech Republic. I know the Beretta has a following but IMHO is not in the same league as the CZ 75 design. The US Army uses the 92. That doesn't make the gun special it just acknowledges the fact Italy had a location for a US Navy base. The SIG is excellent but more money than a Shadow.

By "shooting circles" are you referring to the planet as a whole and the fact it is round. Unless you are planning to raise an Army and are faced with budget constraints what military forces uses for weapons would be the last test I would apply when it comes to buying my first or last handgun.

Take Care

Bob
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Again excuse the ignorance of CZ, I am now informed.

Seeing all the comments, reviews, videos and experts talking about their favorites, I'll just have to walk into the store and fondle the guns to make the final call, as it seems they are all on par reliability wise.

Thank you all for the wisdom, it has helped greatly.
Now all I need is Ammo and for the damn CFO to hurry up :p
 
gnmontey said:
Dots? Where?

M
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flip the barrel upside down

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4890046_02_s_w_m_p_9mm_4_25_barrel_smith__640.jpg
 
Accuracy is a relative term. I have never been a good enough shot freestyle to notice the difference. From a pistol rest off a bench out to 15 yards I am satisfied I can note differences. Beyond 15 yards though my eyes with corrective lenses (I am far sighted), are not good enough to ensure a consistent hod out to 25 yards using a rest. From my experience the 1 - 10 twist barrel is more accurate using 125 and 147 gr bullets than the earlier barrel at 1- 18. Too, S&W had some early barrels crack near the chamber area and those early barrels were replaced with barrels that were beefier than the first versions.

The guns are not target pistols but are certainly as accurate as most can shoot and equal to their counterparts using the same slide lock up system. From my experience neither the M&P or Glock are as accurate off a bench as the CZ using a bushing but that is off a bench, I really have not seen any practical difference in accuracy when playing the games.

Take Care

Bob
 
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