AT 15 Gas Impingment Systems

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grinder08

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So after having had a chance to put a decent number of rounds through my Windham AR 15 14.5" barrel (about 1500) I have come to the conclusion that all the talk of gas impingment systems being too dirty, unreliable etc is a load of Horse----. My AR15 is far and away the cleanest running semi auto I own (3 rifles and 6 handguns). I recently left it uncleaned and unlubed until things started to go wrong. After about 700 rounds (that's about 5 trips to the range over 3 months) it started to have the occasional misfeed. I think the misfeeds were primarily related to a particular brass I was using for reloads, every other type of brass fed fine (no I am not going to say what the brass was). Took it home and cleaned. I am sure all it needed was a bit of oil. All very clean inside. I am getting to understand why the military hasn't gone with piston models. Just not worth the extra weight and cost for an, at best, marginal improvement in reliability. A little bit of basic maintenance and you are good to go. All this tends to support staying with the M4. Long live the AR15 and all its derivative. Stoner came up with a pretty good design in my view.
 
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Religious flame indeed.

- Compare your 700 rounds to the ppl shooting Tavors above 3k with no cleaning.
- Stoner did not technically design DI, he designed "expanding gas system which utilizes a piston" (integrated into carrier).
- Carbon, corrosive materials, and mechanically corrosive action of gases flowing at high speed and pressure - all these factors are not horse----. If one chooses to have all that in action as opposed to gas having much shorter pass - that's just a matter of personal religion.
 
No need to compare to Tavors, plenty of ar15 documented as runnin well past those numbers. Op probably just needed to spray more oil in it.
 
Read this article and you'll forget about the negative BS online. Of course this only applies to properly built quality AR rifles. There ar plenty of low end well out of spec garbage offerings as well.

https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/196990_Filthy_14_is_now_over_40_000_rounds.html

quote from Pat Rogers(RIP)

"Filthy 14 broke 40k this past weekend at the EAG Carbine 2 Course in Franklin TN.

#14 is a 16" Mid Length that has been used in EAG classes since we first received it."

The Ar15.com discussion above is quite interesting.
 
^ also that interview of the guy who owns(?) battlefield Vegas saying they put 100k+ rounds a month through their m4s (I assume several guns not 1) and they only clean it like once a week.
 
all my colt canadas need some cleaning at 800 otherwise weird things start to happen
but hey thats just me and 5 ARs
must be just me
 
Gunnerlove said:
Stoner and Sullivan did a great job balancing accuracy, reliability and weight while designing the AR15.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree. I have just recently gotten into the DI game and both rifles I have right now are much better balanced than piston rifles. For our purposes reliability up to 700 rounds is more than enough anyways. The accuracy is typically better with DI as well in my limited experience.
 
Horilka said:
Religious flame indeed.

- Compare your 700 rounds to the ppl shooting Tavors above 3k with no cleaning.
- Stoner did not technically design DI, he designed "expanding gas system which utilizes a piston" (integrated into carrier).
- Carbon, corrosive materials, and mechanically corrosive action of gases flowing at high speed and pressure - all these factors are not horse----. If one chooses to have all that in action as opposed to gas having much shorter pass - that's just a matter of personal religion.
Click to expand...

Not slagging Tavors or any other piston system. I am just saying that in my view the extra weight and balance, which I don't like, of a piston system is not justified. My misfeeds where caused by a lack of oil and a particular brass type in my reloads so I don't fault the gun.
 
Gunnerlove said:
Stoner and Sullivan did a great job balancing accuracy, reliability and weight while designing the AR15.
Click to expand...

This is exactly my point. Every firearm is a compromise and I believe the GI M16 and its derivative hit the balance pretty well. I have several gas piston guns as well which I like a lot but my point is I don't see a NEED for the gas piston in the AR 15. If you want and enjoy the Tavor etc that is great. I am just saying I don't believe there is anything wrong with GI so I don't think it is a valid reason to spend a lot extra on a gun just because someone says it get dirty.
 
I love AR's!!!!



Knight's Armament SR-15

Final Round Count: 20,145
Cleanings: Zero
Malfunctions: Zero
Final Accuracy Test: 1.1" edge to edge 5 shot group at 100 yards.

 
Well, any "lubing" of AR is also a cleaning, so that should be excluded for proper test.
For true scientific comparison of DI (or Stoner's version of DI, which is not strictly DI) and piston driven system we would need to find a rifle designed in such a manner that change of gas system had zero effect on all operation of all other components, however such rifle does not exist. Both DI and piston system have cons and pros and into some extent guns are build/perfected around the gas system, that's why it's not that simple to compare those systems.
 
mikethebike said:
all my colt canadas need some cleaning at 800 otherwise weird things start to happen
but hey thats just me and 5 ARs
must be just me
Click to expand...

I suspect your rifles have removed all the lube you applied by the 800 round mark. More lube and more rounds. :)

Horilka said:
Well, any "lubing" of AR is also a cleaning, so that should be excluded for proper test.
For true scientific comparison of DI (or Stoner's version of DI, which is not strictly DI) and piston driven system we would need to find a rifle designed in such a manner that change of gas system had zero effect on all operation of all other components, however such rifle does not exist. Both DI and piston system have cons and pros and into some extent guns are build/perfected around the gas system, that's why it's not that simple to compare those systems.
Click to expand...

Lubing your rifle is NOT cleaning your rifle, I don't care how you try and cut that pie it simply is not the case. Keep your AR wet and it will run(provided it isn't an out of spec low end POS).
 
Lubing doesn't clean at all? Stoner was indeed a great mind that invented AR system exempted from laws of physics when it comes to liquids.
 
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Horilka said:
Lubing doesn't clean at all? Stoner was indeed a great mind that invented AR system exempted from laws of physics when it comes to liquids.
Click to expand...

Lubricant in your firearm is there primarily to reduce friction. By default your lubricant will remove/wash/displace carbon fouling to some degree as well. Keep your guns well lubed and they will work. Even the "almighty AK47" MUST BE LUBRICATED and CLEANED to run properly. I've shot many and observed a fair number incur stoppages as well. They aren't the "maintenance free" rifle that many believe it to be.
 
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