At a Match last weekend and saw US military guys using the Remington MSR in 300WM

Magoo22

Magoo22

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Went to the Granite Creek Snipers Match in Virginia City Montana on the weekend and there was a couple of active duty US soldiers shooting the Remington MSR. Got a decent look at the platform and it looks very nice. They were chambered in 300WM and the guys were shooting issued ammo. Looks like the .308 is on life support for bolt guys.

Great match, if you have the urge to go you won't be disappointed. Awesome guys, great location and good target layout. Set up as a team match with 10 stages and up to 12 targets per stage. No big bags, tripods, hog saddles, or any other PSR type gear. Just shooters, targets and good times. A big thanks to Skybridge Tactical for hosting a great match.
 
Sounds like an awesome match! Why the dislike for big bags, tripods and hog saddles if I might ask? I'm sure if you were to ask those mil guys they'd tell you that tripods and saddles are staples of a sniper's loadout these days. I shot a team match down in Kettle Falls, Wa a couple weeks ago and one of the days was shot almost exclusively off tripods as it was all shooting off a reverse slope. It was tons of fun. I'm expecting more of the same at the Sniper's Hide Cup this weekend.
 
I don't believe the 308 is on life support, I think it is a great training round. Sure, it gets pushed around by the wind and is less forgiving when ranging targets, but isn't that paired with the longer barrel life, cheaper and plentiful components exactly what you'd want?
 
mustang979 said:
I don't believe the 308 is on life support, I think it is a great training round. Sure, it gets pushed around by the wind and is less forgiving when ranging targets, but isn't that paired with the longer barrel life, cheaper and plentiful components exactly what you'd want?
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On life support is probably an exaggeration, but slowly being phased out may be more likely. Local emergency teams are already ordering 6.5 creed barrels for some of the AI 's issued for testing I hear. With that ammo becoming more common, prices will decrease.
 
The US Army Marksmanship Unit does send shooters up here to Canada to compete in the DCRA Matches. All shoot .308 rifles, with 155 gr bullets, usually Barnard actions in prone stocks. Each rifle has handloaded ammo loaded by the support staff of the Marksmanship Unit for each rifle.
 
The 300WM has been in limited service with various units within the US military since the 90's and their MTU 1000 yard guns used it back in those days as well before transitioning to other cartridges for competive, target type shooting.

On the operational side it has been used in all the variations of the Mk13 sniper rifles (Mod 0 thru 5?) in a 190 grain loading originally (A191) and then a rather warm loading using the 220 SMK later on (Mk248 Mod 1) And the MSR and M2010 are chambered in the same.

The US sure seem to have a lot of different calibers available to specialized units these days between the 300WM, the 308 M110's and 338's and 50 BMG too. I've heard that some form of 6.5 is even being proposed for issue to SF units down there.
 
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rugbydave said:
Sounds like an awesome match! Why the dislike for big bags, tripods and hog saddles if I might ask? I'm sure if you were to ask those mil guys they'd tell you that tripods and saddles are staples of a sniper's loadout these days.
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Just playing devil's advocate here, I can see why there could be a dislike for tripods and HOG saddles at matches. I personally don't really care if they are allowed or disallowed but if shooters can use anything they drag to the firing line why not allow them to bring a step ladder or even a shooting bench? If the firing line is next to the parking lot you could bring almost anything. Where do you draw the line?

Even the PRS finale limits what gear you can use at each stage. Also at the matches I go to shooters are allowed to set up their gear before each stage and tripods take much longer than most equipment with guys trying to set them up just right.

PRS prides itself in being a practical type of shooting sport. If a stage us supposed to simulate a snap shooting type of situation allowing a shooter time to set up their gear in advance does not seem very practical.

That said I do own a HOG saddle and tripod but I don't use them much and have never felt the need for one at a match. This is just my opinion but they have a purpose they were built for which is shooting through windows and loop holes and similar situations and they work really well for that. A lot of stage designs do not really give a huge advantage to anyone using a tripod. I have never seen someone get a significant lead by using one even though they set them up in advance they just seem too slow to use.

That said I do bring mine. Mostly to hold a spotting scope but if a stage designer wanted they could say something like you have to hit a 2 MOA target from beind a 4' high wall without touching the wall. Personally I don't think that would be a very good stage but it could be there and force a shooter to either lose points or borrow or buy an expensive tripod setup.

With the big bags I see less of an issue. My PRS gear is also my coyote hunting gear and the only bags I use are a small TAB Gear bag attached to my sling and my backpack. I have seen some people really handicap themselves using bags trying to set them up in weird ways and running out of time so I think they are a double edged sword.

Again that's just my opinion. At a different type of match or in a different part of the country people may have a different experience.
 
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Roddy said:
Just playing devil's advocate here, I can see why there could be a dislike for tripods and HOG saddles at matches. I personally don't really care if they are allowed or disallowed but if shooters can use anything they drag to the firing line why not allow them to bring a step ladder or even a shooting bench? If the firing line is next to the parking lot you could bring almost anything. Where do you draw the line?

Even the PRS finale limits what gear you can use at each stage. Also at the matches I go to shooters are allowed to set up their gear before each stage and tripods take much longer than most equipment with guys trying to set them up just right.

PRS prides itself in being a practical type of shooting sport. If a stage us supposed to simulate a snap shooting type of situation allowing a shooter time to set up their gear in advance does not seem very practical.

That said I do own a HOG saddle and tripod but I don't use them much and have never felt the need for one at a match. This is just my opinion but they have a purpose they were built for which is shooting through windows and loop holes and similar situations and they work really well for that. A lot of stage designs do not really give a huge advantage to anyone using a tripod. I have never seen someone get a significant lead by using one even though they set them up in advance they just seem too slow to use.

That said I do bring mine. Mostly to hold a spotting scope but if a stage designer wanted they could say something like you have to hit a 2 MOA target from beind a 4' high wall without touching the wall. Personally I don't think that would be a very good stage but it could be there and force a shooter to either lose points or borrow or buy an expensive tripod setup.

With the big bags I see less of an issue. My PRS gear is also my coyote hunting gear and the only bags I use are a small TAB Gear bag attached to my sling and my backpack. I have seen some people really handicap themselves using bags trying to set them up in weird ways and running out of time so I think they are a double edged sword.

Again that's just my opinion. At a different type of match or in a different part of the country people may have a different experience.
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I have to say, in most matches I've shot, it's quite rare to get to setup your gear before the clock starts. If you were using your tripod, you'd have it roughly setup but in hand when the timer starts. In my mind, there are 2 kinds of matches: PRS-type and then the team matches. PRS matches you usually have the ranges given and a short time period to get all your shots off (90-120 seconds). In the team matches, you usually have to range your targets and setup under the clock but you get something like 5 minutes for your 2-man team. You also have to carry all the gear you're going to use on you all day and there is quite a bit of hiking between stages (think at least a few kms over the day). I end up bringing a ight rear bag on my rifle, a big bag and a game changer. One stage you even had to engage targets with your pistol while carrying your full load, rifle included. I think I've only ever been able to use a tripod as intended once in a PRS type match. Normally you end up using it as a type of rear support when shooting off a barricade. In the team matches, they're invaluable though, especially as lots of the stages are setup so that you are on a reverse slope or you just can't see the targets if you're prone.
 
rugbydave said:
I'm sure if you were to ask those mil guys they'd tell you that tripods and saddles are staples of a sniper's loadout these days.
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Personal rant: If you ask mil guys about anything and call any marksman a "sniper", that drives actual HOG's insane. Sniper is a hard earned trade, marksman and PIG's are not snipers even if they believe they are. There are no LEO snipers. They may call themselves that but unless you did the military sniper schools and are qualified as a sniper, you are a not a sniper.
 
rugbydave I think we both agree then that tripods can be useful but are not the end all, be all in PRS. I wouldn't go as far as to say overrated but I think a lot of people have them and just want to use them. Personally I am not that good with a tripod and I find them really slow and honestly not all that solid compared to a tree or a post. They have a use and are way better than no support but I like using a my pack when I can better.

But again at different matches this are different. I wish hiking between stages was involved as I like hiking! Also I have never shot in the team type matches you mentioned yet but I would love to try that. It sounds like it would add a whole new dimension to the match. I am attending a team match next month but I have no idea how it is going to be run. I have tried a lot of different shooting sports and PRS type shooting is by far my favourite.
 
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.308w (the ballistic equal of the 30/06) on its way out? Dont hold your breath....thats very old news...when Ben Comfort won the 1000 yd Wimbleton Cup in 1935 with a .300 H&H...I bet they said the 30/06 was on its way out.... I imagine that the 308 might eventually get replaced...but it does so many things well.
 
Was at the Snipers Hide Team Match this past weekend. Another great match. I think a tripod was mandatory if you wanted to engage all of the targets. If you had more time and some leniency in where you could set up it might be possible to trees and other natural features to set up a shooting position. On some stages you had to shoot through a 3' hole in the trees down into a meadow or across the valley up hill etc. Given limited time, and as Rugbydave said, needing to range multiple targets for 2 shooters to get 12 to 16 rounds off each, getting into position fast is very important.
The limited division in these matches is getting smaller and smaller. It seems everyone that is shooting .308 is at least talking about switching to either 6.5 or 6.0 and improving their odds. The limited division is so that Military and Police could bring their service rifles and shoot a match. Aside from 2 Canadian Tac Team guys most of the military or law enforcement folks I talked to were shooting in the open division. Out of 43 teams I think there was maybe 7 or 8 teams shooting .308 with me and my partner being one of them.

As a side note, there were some Junior shooters there this weekend including a 9 yr. old girl. Watched her stand behind her tripod with no rear support and hit a mover at 500 yards 5 times in a row. I'm sure that if you asked her what she thought about shooting off a tripod you would get a different perspective. Kind of impressive to see that as the future of the sport.

.308 and us old guys shooting prone or off logs will join the flint lock crowd one day...
 
Magoo22 said:
Was at the Snipers Hide Team Match this past weekend. Another great match. I think a tripod was mandatory if you wanted to engage all of the targets. If you had more time and some leniency in where you could set up it might be possible to trees and other natural features to set up a shooting position. On some stages you had to shoot through a 3' hole in the trees down into a meadow or across the valley up hill etc. Given limited time, and as Rugbydave said, needing to range multiple targets for 2 shooters to get 12 to 16 rounds off each, getting into position fast is very important.
The limited division in these matches is getting smaller and smaller. It seems everyone that is shooting .308 is at least talking about switching to either 6.5 or 6.0 and improving their odds. The limited division is so that Military and Police could bring their service rifles and shoot a match. Aside from 2 Canadian Tac Team guys most of the military or law enforcement folks I talked to were shooting in the open division. Out of 43 teams I think there was maybe 7 or 8 teams shooting .308 with me and my partner being one of them.

As a side note, there were some Junior shooters there this weekend including a 9 yr. old girl. Watched her stand behind her tripod with no rear support and hit a mover at 500 yards 5 times in a row. I'm sure that if you asked her what she thought about shooting off a tripod you would get a different perspective. Kind of impressive to see that as the future of the sport.

.308 and us old guys shooting prone or off logs will join the flint lock crowd one day...
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Firstly it was great seeing you guys again this weekend! I'm kinda bummed that that's it for team matches this season (Jordan, MT is just too far and $350USD for entry is kinda pushing it) It's also a bummer about the small numbers in Limited. I was hoping it would get bigger but you're right, there's never much more than 7-8 teams (at the RTC matches) or a similar number of shooters at the PRS matches. Ideally I'd shoot Limited for team matches and Open in individual matches, although I'm gonna continue shooting Limited/Tac till the fall I think. I think the problem is that so many new shooters start off with 6.5s or very quickly transition to them (or 6s) when they see their low hit %. There's no arguing that those calibers are ballistically superior. That being said, I really like shooting the slug guns, just wish we had a bigger field against which to compare ourselves. Also, it's nice watching Scott and Kevin normally finish in the top 3 shooting .308s, haha even though it kinda kills our excuse for not making more hits! Oh and man do I like shooting seated off a tripod, haha.
 
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