ATC remote area carry handguns I recommend...
- Thread starter Camp Cook
- Start date
Ruger 4.2" Redhawk INBOUND... I can hardly wait!! XMas present to myself 
... Thank you VISA!
Anyway, Camp Cook, what would you recommend for SD loads for wilderness carry in the .44 Magnum? So, more specifically, what bullet weight and velocity would you be wanting to attain
I was thinking 300gr Hardcast from BulletBarn at 1100fps?
~cheers
... Thank you VISA!Anyway, Camp Cook, what would you recommend for SD loads for wilderness carry in the .44 Magnum? So, more specifically, what bullet weight and velocity would you be wanting to attain
I was thinking 300gr Hardcast from BulletBarn at 1100fps?
~cheers
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
I carry a 44mag.
I am currently carrying a 44 mag and a 40S&W for winter work. The 44 mag is a 629 S&W 5" full underlug model.
I do carry mine strong side as I don't like crossdraw for sweeping one self.
I load hot loads of 300 grain XTP's in mine.
I know of guys carrying bigger pistols like the 460 and 500, however I hate the blast from them and I know that I would never practice with them enough to become proficient. That is my reasoning behind the 44mag. Even loading these hot still allows me to practice monthly with it. If you can't hit ####, there is no use carrying it.
I also make sure the coworkers that work with me are up to the task of using it as well.
Greg
I am currently carrying a 44 mag and a 40S&W for winter work. The 44 mag is a 629 S&W 5" full underlug model.
I do carry mine strong side as I don't like crossdraw for sweeping one self.
I load hot loads of 300 grain XTP's in mine.
I know of guys carrying bigger pistols like the 460 and 500, however I hate the blast from them and I know that I would never practice with them enough to become proficient. That is my reasoning behind the 44mag. Even loading these hot still allows me to practice monthly with it. If you can't hit ####, there is no use carrying it.
I also make sure the coworkers that work with me are up to the task of using it as well.
Greg
I'll trust 45ACP for a coked up human, I'd feel like I was chucking rocks at an angry bear with the exact same gun. Just speculation, but I'm thinking speed is the key here. All the listed guns are very high velocity rounds. That and the CFO's seem to dislike semi-autos, according to the OP. I'm sure 45ACP would kill a bear, but if I were picking a gun specifically for the task, it wouldn't be my choice. Bear Vitals are a LOT deeper than human. Just my opinion as a non-ATC guy on teh interweb.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Elmer Keith USED to recommend the .45 ACP chambered 1917 S&W revolver for big game in his home state of Idaho.
However the load he once put forth was later known to be way too hot for the S&W frame, on this particular sixgun.
I'm pretty sure these days, one probably can make do, with a strong S&W Model 625, using 45 Auto Rim brass to ensure positive ejection, with hot reloads once touted by Keith.
But most of us would probably just settle for a .44 magnum from the get go, and would be better off and safer too with magnum brass.
I've read a 1988 Guns & Ammo article on the subject of wild boar hunting in California. The 1911 .45s that some hunters used, were found to be wanting in the stopping power department. The article concluded a serious hunting handgun, starts at .357 magnum for this game animal.
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
45 acp
The 45 ACP is no where near the 44 mag and that should be the starting level for ATC carry in my opinion.
There is the hot 45 caliber that Gunar creates but I wouldn't even consider that as a carry piece for ATC but that is my opinion. Like one of the other posters stated, you need deep penetration on a bear. Most non hunters on here will state that the 45 is fine but I would question how many of them have looked at bullet wounds on any game animals.
Everyone can carry what they think is best. For me, it is the 44 mag with at least a hot 300gr bullet.
Greg
The 45 ACP is no where near the 44 mag and that should be the starting level for ATC carry in my opinion.
There is the hot 45 caliber that Gunar creates but I wouldn't even consider that as a carry piece for ATC but that is my opinion. Like one of the other posters stated, you need deep penetration on a bear. Most non hunters on here will state that the 45 is fine but I would question how many of them have looked at bullet wounds on any game animals.
Everyone can carry what they think is best. For me, it is the 44 mag with at least a hot 300gr bullet.
Greg
I agree 100%, better to have more power than less when in a fight for your life.
Thx.
There is a major difference between hunting and stopping rounds do not confuse the two...
Yes a 45 ACP will kill a bear so can a 22LR but these rounds will not reliably stop a bear that is charging, didn't say it wouldn't said "reliably stop" there is no way that I would trust my life with one and you will note in my OP I didn't even mention a 357mag not that it wouldn't work it just isn't a stopper that I would trust my life with.
What bullets would I recommend?
In black bear country you do not need a heavy WFNGC bullet I would and did load my 6" 629 44mag with (WOW forgot about that gun in the original post) 240gr to 300gr XTP's and my favorite bullet was a 270gr Gold Dot.
When in grizzly country I wanted better penetration and loaded it with 300gr WFNGC's.
Here is an example a fellow CGNTZ member in Northern BC was telling me how he emptied his Glock 20 10mm mag at a grizzly it ran off but when he came back later with the CO's they never could find the bear if I remember right he now packs a 460S&W.
Here is another thought when a bear charges it doesn't mean that it is in a full out run at you many attacks are slow and deliberate moves by the bear, they come in this way because they do not want to expend any unnessasary energies or injure themselves and it means that you are going to be dinner if you cannot stop them.
Yes a 45 ACP will kill a bear so can a 22LR but these rounds will not reliably stop a bear that is charging, didn't say it wouldn't said "reliably stop" there is no way that I would trust my life with one and you will note in my OP I didn't even mention a 357mag not that it wouldn't work it just isn't a stopper that I would trust my life with.
What bullets would I recommend?
In black bear country you do not need a heavy WFNGC bullet I would and did load my 6" 629 44mag with (WOW forgot about that gun in the original post) 240gr to 300gr XTP's and my favorite bullet was a 270gr Gold Dot.
When in grizzly country I wanted better penetration and loaded it with 300gr WFNGC's.
Here is an example a fellow CGNTZ member in Northern BC was telling me how he emptied his Glock 20 10mm mag at a grizzly it ran off but when he came back later with the CO's they never could find the bear if I remember right he now packs a 460S&W.
Here is another thought when a bear charges it doesn't mean that it is in a full out run at you many attacks are slow and deliberate moves by the bear, they come in this way because they do not want to expend any unnessasary energies or injure themselves and it means that you are going to be dinner if you cannot stop them.
A must read this was written by a fellow his name is JJ Hack I first read this article when it was first posted years ago on Greybeard Outdoor Forum and it has guided me in my bullet/cartridge choices ever since.
By JJ Hack
I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!
When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I’m quite familiar with them.
During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.
We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.
The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.
This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunter’s accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.
The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I’m going to have to shoot him too.
This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!
There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!
So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!
The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don’t mistake me here, I don’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.
This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.
Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Redhawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.
The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.
Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.
Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.
One other thing to consider, don’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.
Don’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.
Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.
Don’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.
I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!
jj
By JJ Hack
I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!
When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I’m quite familiar with them.
During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.
We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.
The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.
This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunter’s accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.
The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I’m going to have to shoot him too.
This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!
There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!
So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!
The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don’t mistake me here, I don’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.
This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.
Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Redhawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.
The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.
Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.
Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.
One other thing to consider, don’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.
Don’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.
Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.
Don’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.
I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!
jj
I have a ATC for my trapline, here in ontario you take the wilderness handgun survival course.And then you send all your paperwork threw and RCMP calls says they doubt you will get one.I asked them have you ever chased a timber wolf around a tree to club it with an axe ,which is niether human or a nice feelin? Then they said i see your point and in a wk got my atc.I carry a 22mag revolver a charters arms 6 in barrled unit aswell as a 460S&W and i also have a 22 browning SEMI on my atc.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
To me when an ATC gun is at its best it must fall within a very narrow group of parameters. The gun must be powerful, yet controllable enough for fast follow up shots. Excessively heavy recoil is not conducive to a long life if your first shot misses the mark. The gun must be of moderate weight and bulk for comfortable daily carry so the excessively large frame guns and long barrels need not apply. The gun must also be resilient as it will be carried and used under harsh environmental conditions, not to mention that it might get dropped, or that you might take a fall and land on it.
I think that a heavy handload in a .44 magnum or .45 Colt is a good place to start, and this means handloads. WFN hard cast bullets weighing between 300 and 350 grs should allow you get 1150 fps from a short barrel, and these ballistics still allow for moderate enough recoil for good control, and fast follow up shots for most people used to firing powerful handguns. From this point you can tweak your loads to fit your comfort and performance levels, but I urge you not to gain too much velocity. Very heavy recoil and sticky cartridges are bad news.
The gun I most often carry now is a .44 Ruger Vaquero with a 45/8" barrel. The gun is small for a .44, it has no crane to be sprung out of alignment, and it has a grooved top strap for a rear sight which is pretty difficult to damage. I had a SBH whose rear sight failed from recoil. If your gun has an adjustable rear sight, then I highly recommend that you swap it out for a Rough Country rear sight from Bowen Classic Arms. These sights are the toughest handgun sights I have ever come across. The windage is adjusted with 2 opposing screws, so there is no spring keeping tension on the adjustment screw. You simply back of one screw and advance the other. When adjusted to the bottom of it's elevation adjustment it is an exceedingly tough sight, so my choice would be to keep it that way and regulate the height of the front sight until the gun shoots to point of aim.
I think that you need to take the cost of an ATC gun into account. The Vaquero was inexpensive enough that I won't go into mourning if it is damaged, something not true of a Freedom Arms gun. That is not to suggest that my guns are not maintained, they are, but working in the outdoors exposes a gun to harsher conditions than a gun that is carried for hunting or target shooting. I've considered a custom gun for ATC, but the cost and wait time I decided was unattractive for a gun that would be treated unkindly.
I think that a heavy handload in a .44 magnum or .45 Colt is a good place to start, and this means handloads. WFN hard cast bullets weighing between 300 and 350 grs should allow you get 1150 fps from a short barrel, and these ballistics still allow for moderate enough recoil for good control, and fast follow up shots for most people used to firing powerful handguns. From this point you can tweak your loads to fit your comfort and performance levels, but I urge you not to gain too much velocity. Very heavy recoil and sticky cartridges are bad news.
The gun I most often carry now is a .44 Ruger Vaquero with a 45/8" barrel. The gun is small for a .44, it has no crane to be sprung out of alignment, and it has a grooved top strap for a rear sight which is pretty difficult to damage. I had a SBH whose rear sight failed from recoil. If your gun has an adjustable rear sight, then I highly recommend that you swap it out for a Rough Country rear sight from Bowen Classic Arms. These sights are the toughest handgun sights I have ever come across. The windage is adjusted with 2 opposing screws, so there is no spring keeping tension on the adjustment screw. You simply back of one screw and advance the other. When adjusted to the bottom of it's elevation adjustment it is an exceedingly tough sight, so my choice would be to keep it that way and regulate the height of the front sight until the gun shoots to point of aim.
I think that you need to take the cost of an ATC gun into account. The Vaquero was inexpensive enough that I won't go into mourning if it is damaged, something not true of a Freedom Arms gun. That is not to suggest that my guns are not maintained, they are, but working in the outdoors exposes a gun to harsher conditions than a gun that is carried for hunting or target shooting. I've considered a custom gun for ATC, but the cost and wait time I decided was unattractive for a gun that would be treated unkindly.
Did you take the course in Kap?
Lots of trappers around here are talking of making a trip and taking the course and applying for the permits. A few guys in the local trappers council have them.
Most stated the need to tend to trapline trails and other such summer activities as a reason for thier application because others had been turned down when using 'dispatch' as a reason for ATC.
"Defense of your life and the life of others" is the most important reason for needing to carry.
Years ago I read an article in a Shooting Times magazine written by Rick Jamison it was about a fellow that was a animal control officer in the States his handgun for dispatching problem animals was a single action Ruger in 45 Colt loaded with top loads and if I remember correctly it was a Vaquero.
There were several instances where he had shot at a bear 6 times and the bear had still not gone down the next comment was his son-in-law was able to put the bears down as they were coming at him son-in-law was using a rifle.
Having this story in the back of my mind as I carried single action revolvers is part of the reason I switched to double action revolvers.
Years ago I read an article in a Shooting Times magazine written by Rick Jamison it was about a fellow that was a animal control officer in the States his handgun for dispatching problem animals was a single action Ruger in 45 Colt loaded with top loads and if I remember correctly it was a Vaquero.
There were several instances where he had shot at a bear 6 times and the bear had still not gone down the next comment was his son-in-law was able to put the bears down as they were coming at him son-in-law was using a rifle.
Having this story in the back of my mind as I carried single action revolvers is part of the reason I switched to double action revolvers.
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
Shooting the mighty 10mm
Yes Camp, Johnny ditched that 10mm after seeing what it did to that bear!
I thought that maybe the 10mm was the way to go but after listening to his story I know it is not now. He has gone to the mighty 460.
My only issue with guns that big are the training requirements. Yes you can shoot a couple rounds and claim good but to me that is not training. The muzzle blast is terrible and uncomfortable to train with. I know that personally I would not be training with this gun enough to feel confortable.
I can train with my 44mag day in day out with the loads I carry. This is important to me.
Greg
Yes Camp, Johnny ditched that 10mm after seeing what it did to that bear!
I thought that maybe the 10mm was the way to go but after listening to his story I know it is not now. He has gone to the mighty 460.
My only issue with guns that big are the training requirements. Yes you can shoot a couple rounds and claim good but to me that is not training. The muzzle blast is terrible and uncomfortable to train with. I know that personally I would not be training with this gun enough to feel confortable.
I can train with my 44mag day in day out with the loads I carry. This is important to me.
Greg
I already have the 686 in .357 and I think its plenty of gun for black bear and honestly its about all I would want to carry around all day.
Having shot bigger cartridges in smaller guns I also find it about the maximum recoil I can control and refire in awkward positions.
Thanks CC for all the info and experiences..............
Having shot bigger cartridges in smaller guns I also find it about the maximum recoil I can control and refire in awkward positions.
Thanks CC for all the info and experiences..............
- Location
- Monteregie Quebec
For years I had a permit to carry on my trap line, witch is really remote. I fly into my trapping territory in mid October and fly out in mid December, depending on the weather. This year (2009) the Sûreté refused to renew it and the reason given was ‘discretionary power ‘ since I filled all the legal requirements. I liked the easy and fast access to my S&W 686 compared to the cumbersome rifle that I must use now. The 357mag was enough for any black bear caught in a snare. The ATC was valid only for my trapping territory which has an area of about 90 square km.
