ATT and borrowing handguns

Grouse Man

Grouse Man

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A buddy has his restricted license and a couple of handguns; now too so do I. We want to meet up on the weekend at the range. The only problem is I'm on my way to the lake and the ATT is only good between home and the range.

Can my buddy take my handgun home with him, essentially borrowing it? (I realize that then I can only pick it up from him at the range, or get a TATT to pick it up at his place.)
 
Actually if you read your ATT carefully it requires you to take the gun to the range and back to the place of storage. In order for your buddy to borrow the handguns you need to call the CFO and get a temporary permit. He and you will then also need a temporary permit to get them back to you.

I know this is ridiculous. I know there will be those that say you can do this without the permits that your ATT covers this. According to the CFO it does not. I've been through this a number of times.

If he takes it home then the gun is not stored at the place listed with the Registrar. There are problems with this if you get caught.

If you did do it without any paperwork you will probably be OK because no one will know. It's only when you are noticed that the sh*t can hit the fan.

Take what you read here with a grain of salt. If you want to cover your ass then call the CFO and ask. If they say you don't need a ATT then get the person's name and note the time of your call, if you can get it in writing.

My last (my current one is at home now) ATT states:
Transport of a restricted firearm(s) and/or prohibited handguns(s) is authorized to and from the shooting range ...

Firearms must be transported by a route that, in all circumstances, is reasonably direct.​
How reasonably direct is a short stay at your buddy's place?

Different ATTs have different wording. Depending where they were issued and when. I hear that in Manitoba the current ATTs issued are listing all the registration certificates issued to you.
 
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Based on the written language, my opinion is that the ATT text does not say what the CFO has told you in your experience.

For example, they should have worded "to and from the range" to add a word like contiguously or specific as a single trip entirely. But I will phone the CFO for express clarification.

Ridiculously unclear.
 
Keep in mind, the CFO's answer may have no foundation in the Firearms Act, but merely be an opinion or policy. In other words, wrong.

Just like many of the other policies and procedures in place across the country.
 
Stevo said:
Keep in mind, the CFO's answer may have no foundation in the Firearms Act, but merely be an opinion or policy. In other words, wrong.

Just like many of the other policies and procedures in place across the country.
Click to expand...

Did not find specific mention concerning restricted firearm lending/borrowing.

lendingfirearm.gif
 
python357 said:
Did not find specific mention concerning restricted firearm lending/borrowing.

lendingfirearm.gif
Click to expand...

Python,
I wasn't referring to the ability to lend/borrow restricteds, which is perfectly legal to do, but to the way the CFO will say it must be done. IE: Temp ATT's, etc. You never know what those wacky bureaucrats will come up with next.
 
Just got off the phone. She said as long as the Reg Cert is with the gun and my buddy's ATT doesn't specifically list the 'allowable' guns (thereby excluding mine), then it's fine.

I wonder if I phone again tomorrow; will a different person give a different answer?
 
ATT's only allow from storage to range and back. You will need a temp ATT to go from your house to your buddies UNLESS he meats you AT the range. He can then "borrow" your restricted without any additional paperwork and take said borrowed firearm back to his storage. Assuming he HAS an ATT for his restricted firearms that has no conditions attached.
 
Grouse Man said:
Just got off the phone. She said as long as the Reg Cert is with the gun and my buddy's ATT doesn't specifically list the 'allowable' guns (thereby excluding mine), then it's fine.

I wonder if I phone again tomorrow; will a different person give a different answer?
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Told you so.;)

You will probably get the same answer from the same office, but I would highly doubt you'd get the same answers from every CFO office in the country.

An example of current bull####: The AB CFO is not signing off on PAL renewals for shooters with restricted firearms unless they provide proof of gun club membership. Total made up crap.:rolleyes:
 
Maybe for ATT's

I just bought another restricted firearm and I sent in no such documentation. Got the reg in the mail.

I had never even got a call from anyone, when I phoned CFC to complete the transfer she just asked me if I was a member of a club. I said yes, gave the name and that was it.
 
Grouse Man said:
Just got off the phone. She said as long as the Reg Cert is with the gun and my buddy's ATT doesn't specifically list the 'allowable' guns (thereby excluding mine), then it's fine.

I wonder if I phone again tomorrow; will a different person give a different answer?
Click to expand...

Did you get her name? Is she a Firearms Officer or a Program Support Clerk? Do you have proof that you were told that it is ok?

I got the same answer as you did. Then at a different time I talked to a different FO and I was told no you can't do that. It's mainly the storage part that can cause problems.
 
Rudy H said:
Did you get her name? Is she a Firearms Officer or a Program Support Clerk? Do you have proof that you were told that it is ok?

I got the same answer as you did. Then at a different time I talked to a different FO and I was told no you can't do that. It's mainly the storage part that can cause problems.
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I got her name and I've asked her to fax me what she told me in writing.
 
Don't forget to stop off and have it tatto'ed on your ass for future referance. The CFO "rules" (and I use the term, very, very loosely) are all made up BS, that wouldn't stand up in court, but who wants to spend the energy and money to fight it? Different from province to province, and from office to office, just beaureaucrats milking thier jobs for all they're worth. - dan
 
dan belisle said:
Don't forget to stop off and have it tatto'ed on your ass for future referance. The CFO "rules" (and I use the term, very, very loosely) are all made up BS, that wouldn't stand up in court, but who wants to spend the energy and money to fight it? Different from province to province, and from office to office, just beaureaucrats milking thier jobs for all they're worth. - dan
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I think it might. You can interpret the ATT that way. If you had confirmation from the FO that that is the correct interpretation then it would be hard to convince a judge you knowingly broke any law. As long as you have proof.

I have had conflicting opinions from the same office that provided the above decision. As I said, always get it in writing. Much better than "someone in that office told me that ..."
 
My 2 cents..

a) Registration certificates don't indicate who is owner
b) ATT doesnt specify which restricted are allowed to be carried ( On mine in Québec)
c) Didn't find specific references to borrowing / lending a restricted firearm.
d) You would have to be REALLY unlucky to get stopped, checked for firearms etc. if you had borrowed your friends restricted AT THE CLUB, with his registration and brought it to your home on your ATT from the same club you belong to for whatever reason that had required this action.

In my younger days, I travelled many,many times to Ontario, Alberta, and all over the Province of Quebec for competitions. I was NEVER stopped for a firearms conformity check and the ONE time we stopped for a burned rear tail - light on my friends car (he had a station-wagon)- the firearm carry boxes were in plain view in the rear storage area. The police officer looked at them and didn't ask one question..We didn't even get a ticket, just a 48Hr warning to get the light bulb changed.

Maybe I've been lucky, and YES the social context HAS changed,but I'm sure there are a lot of other fellow shooters who have never been verified while on the road.

I've belonged to the same club since 1979 (except for when I was in the USA and in QC. City on assignements) and NEVER have we had the visit of someone from the SQ to verify our permits or registrations.

That said, if you're unconfortable about the legal status of such an action DON'T DO IT. You'll sleep better and so will I...:runaway:
 
It depends on the province it seems.

The Ontario ATT says:

"ALL RESTRICTED FIREARMS REGISTERED TO THE RESIDENCE OF THE AUTHORIZATION HOLDER" (this means that my wife can transport my handgun with her ATT, and I can transport hers with my ATT)

So in Ontario you would need a Temporary ATT to do what you are planning. In your province I have no idea. So don't even read what people say about your situation from another provinces. (Sometimes it's hard to believe that Canada is one country.)
 
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