Attempted ladder test

T

TRDJer

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With the Amax being discontinued it's time to develop a new load for my rifle. It is a Savage 10TR 24" Barrel in a Cadex Urban Strike chassis. I'm still waiting to get my hands on some 178 ELD-M bullets. In the mean time I decided to try out the ladder test method of load development using a partial box of 175 TMK's that I had bought from a friend. This for me is really just a test of the test to see if I can get any intelligible data and maybe try the method with other bullets/powders. My load is intended for shooting long distance.

On the weekend I shot the ladder at my local range where the longest distance is 185 yards. I'm using remington cases, CCI Benchrest primers and Varget. The charges go from 42.0-45 grains in 0.3 grain increments.



Up at the top of the target holes 9, 10 and 11 correspond with charges 44.4, 44.7 and 45.0 respectively. Am I interpreting it correctly that the node I'm after would be centered around 44.7 grains? I know I can't go much higher as at 45.0 the charge is compacted pretty solidly. I have 30 bullets left that I plan to load up to shoot some groups with using finer increments moving up and down from 44.7 grains.

Also incidentally the three that I had loaded at 42.0 for sighters grouped well and I'll load up some more of that to do some more group testing.

 
I think for a ladder test to be meaningful you have to try at least twice back to back to see if the results are similar.
 
hawk-i said:
I think for a ladder test to be meaningful you have to try at least twice back to back to see if the results are similar.
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At least two. Not necessarily back to back. I generally go from low to high with singles and then repeat (low to high again). This eliminates some other variables such as effect of barrel heating, fouling , fatigue etc.

" Am I interpreting it correctly that the node I'm after would be centered around 44.7 grains?"

No. You should generally be looking for best grouping which is often below maximum loads.
 
I thought the purpose of the ladder test was to look for powder load "nodes" that had a similar pint of impact? So that if your powder charge wasn't perfect you'd still be grouping.
 
You aren't, or your rifle isn't shooting well enough to garner any definitive results from this test.

You've got lateral stringing due to grip/hold issues, or a failure to shoot through environmental conditions.

Your trying to run before you can even walk, IMO.

FWIW, I think ladder tests are just a great big fad, shoot groups at distance and shoot lotsa groups at distance. You'll find a load and since your likely weighing charges who really needs a "node" it's either gonna shoot or it won't. If you're throwing charges I can see value in a ladder test to set the mid point in thrown volume, but with weighed charges it's a bunch of hype to replace trigger time.
 
Lefty #### said:
You aren't, or your rifle isn't shooting well enough to garner any definitive results from this test.

You've got lateral stringing due to grip/hold issues, or a failure to shoot through environmental conditions.

Your trying to run before you can even walk, IMO.

FWIW, I think ladder tests are just a great big fad, shoot groups at distance and shoot lotsa groups at distance. You'll find a load and since your likely weighing charges who really needs a "node" it's either gonna shoot or it won't. If you're throwing charges I can see value in a ladder test to set the mid point in thrown volume, but with weighed charges it's a bunch of hype to replace trigger time.
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Isn't there some merit in finding a sweet spot and loading around it to negate environmental factors?
 
I've always loaded one of each and look for grouping and/or lateral dispersion, then load three of each. For a 175, 178gn bullet 44.5 - 45.0gn of Varget should work well.
 
From what I've read with ladder testing is that it won't necessarily find the smallest grouping in and of it's self, but find a region of charge that is not very sensitive to loading or environmental variation. The version I was trying to follow focuses on vertical grouping more than horizontal. My plan to start loading for group testing a little above and below 44.7 is to try and find the best grouping charge within that region of insensitivity.

This is just my first attempt at load development so I figured I'd test the test and see if I can come up with something good and learn more in the process.
 
TRDJer said:
From what I've read with ladder testing is that it won't necessarily find the smallest grouping in and of it's self, but find a region of charge that is not very sensitive to loading or environmental variation. The version I was trying to follow focuses on vertical grouping more than horizontal. My plan to start loading for group testing a little above and below 44.7 is to try and find the best grouping charge within that region of insensitivity.

This is just my first attempt at load development so I figured I'd test the test and see if I can come up with something good and learn more in the process.
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I'm certainly no pro, but I think you are on the right track. Work off of the 9,10,11 loads. I would try a .1 gr OCW test with them.
 
Ladder tests work very well when you are looking at shooting 500plus yards, competative shooting at longer distances is a different game then finding a good three - five shot group at 100 yards. The ladder will identify where you have lower velocity variations between charge weights. That may or may not make the smallest groups at shorter ranges, it will reduce the vertical in your groups at longer distances. I use ladder tests when playing with most of my rifles, as most of my shooting is plinking at paper / gongs at over 500 yards. They really are not all that mystical, and really are only meant to show you one thing.

Your 9-10-11 loads is where I would look, shifting to 5 rounds in .2gr steps inside those charges.
 
No, I was simply asking a question. I agree with the practice, practice, practice manyta. I'm simply wondering why say who needs to find a node, don't you want to be loadig in its mod point? Nothing wrong with ladder test at all. Ive never heard any hype around it just found It's a good, quick way to find loads worth pursuing without using excessive components in your load development provided it's done correctly. Besides, you are shooting while doing a ladder test :p

"In application the process shows that the best values for an accurate load are a window, not a specific spot +/- nothing. Identifying and then loading inside the node/window ranges produces ammo that isn't twitchy to tiny loading variations."
That's my line of thinking as well.

Lefty #### said:
You are missing my point.

Shoot more and forget the hype.

Ladder tests aren't all they are hyped up to be.
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It may not be coincidence your 42gr sighters are more accurate.
When doing the tests, i started my sighters at 40.5gr and went up to 44.2gr, in 0.3 gr increments
44.2gr i had pressure signs, 42.1gr is my most accurate load

Why i share this? We are using similar setups.
Savage 10TR, 24", MDT ESS chassis, action screws torqued 65 in/lbs, federal brass, varget, cci br2 primers, Hornady match bthp 178gr bullets
 
At Utube University search for "road to precision" Ryan Pahl he does a ladder test - think he indicates that 300 yards is the minimum to do so - haven't personally tried it at that distance since the max I can go now is 200 yards. Had accurate results using varget around 42-43 grains out of my axis with a 1 - 10 twist

later
btw processing 100 9x fired brass which I will be full sizing for the 1st time
 
There is definitely no replacement for shooting lots of groups to improve my skills. Unfortunately I live 2.5 hours from my home range so I generally spend lots of time doing lots of research and getting analytical.

I plan to attend Tactical Teachers PR clinics at Petawawa this summer so that will get me shooting out to 600.

I would have liked to shoot it at a longer range but don't have access to one right now. Longer range is preferable but since this isn't a super expensive custom rifle I figured I would still be able to get decent data at a shorter range.

Marty and IvoB, any idea of what velocities your getting around 42 grains? I hope to load up the last 30 bullets that I have this weekend and maybe get to shoot them as well. This time I'll get some chrony info as well.
 
The ladder test is to find your barrel harmonics in a minimum amount of wasted time and resources.It's not a "fad" , it works.

You are looking for groups or nodes and you may find 2 or 3 sweet spots that the barrel likes, some may be below and some may be above published data , always watch for pressure signs.

200 yards will also work, but yes , the further out the more definitive your results. Here is why I say a 200 yard test will work, you get a group of 2 or 3 or 4 bullets within an inch and a half or two at 200 , is that not a workable node you can refine as it is certainly a very good start.You drops will obviously become more defined.

Some don't totally agree with my methods but I have obtained good data from 1 ladder test then confirmed with group tests later, get confident in your setup and you will know what good results are.

A chronograph is nice to have also to correlate POI with velocity.

You don't need to burn a pound of powder to find working loads.
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
The ladder test is to find your barrel harmonics in a minimum amount of wasted time and resources.It's not a "fad" , it works.

You don't need to burn a pound of powder to find working loads.
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The above are reasons why I use Mystic's method with emphasis on the OCW thinking. I have records indicating results are repeatable on 3 different occasions with the same charges. I'm not worried about barrel wear like you custom long range'rs but I'm sure some out there may be concerned about that.


Kelly Timoffee said:
You are looking for groups or nodes and you may find 2 or 3 sweet spots that the barrel likes, some may be below and some may be above published data , always watch for pressure signs.

200 yards will also work, but yes , the further out the more definitive your results. Here is why I say a 200 yard test will work, you get a group of 2 or 3 or 4 bullets within an inch and a half or two at 200 , is that not a workable node you can refine as it is certainly a very good start. Your drops will obviously become more defined. .
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200 yds here and it worked. Found 2 nodes for my rifle and 3 on my sons. Same caliber, same manufacturer but different models. Local range has 300 but our optics and related equipment run out of resolution.

Kelly Timoffee said:
A chronograph is nice to have also to correlate POI with velocity.
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:dancingbanana: Magnetospeed purchased and what a tool for analytics! Just been at the range once with it but looking forward to developing what would be considered "longer range" accurate rounds for myself to test my abilities. I've got to improve on correlating the velocity results to each shot but I'll train myself.

Mystic Precision said:
http://mysticprecision.com/category/tech-reloading/

Several articles that might help you out... call it a modified ladder test.

It works, simple, saves alot of mucking about and gets results.

Enjoy and good luck.

Jerry
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^^^ Worked well for me and I'm thankful for it.

... a couple of hours travel to the range wouldn't be bad for me...in this case it's the opportunity to get there is the hard part! :(

Regards
Ronr
 
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