Australian International Arms Response

cantom

cantom

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Today I received an email from AIA, Australian International Arms, maker of the M10 series of Enfield clone rifles.
Anyone who owns an AIA rifle or wants to pls contact me and I'll forward you the PDF's he sent.
I personally own two AIA rifles, a No 4 Mk 4 and an M10 B2. Both are gorgeous rifles.

AIArifles.jpg


Tom



<Hello, Tom,

Sorry about the delay in replying, the Festive season is not called the
Silly Season in Australia for nothing!

All our rifles are proof tested: each barrel is subjected to pressure
testing in a firing fixture, then the barreled action is subjected to a
single proof round. Proof cartridges are custom loaded Mil Spec
equivalents. Barrels passing inspection after proof are marked with a
code letter just forward of the breech thread of the barrel; it is
sometimes covered by the barrel lock nut. The letter "P" on the right
side of the breech ring is the acceptance stamp applied after
inspection
following the testing of the barreled action. This procedure is applied
to both the 7.62 x 39 and 7. 62 NATO models.

I have attached the most recent editions of the users manuals in as
PDFs. I would appreciate any user feedback on content, clarity or other
issues.

Happy shooting.

Bruce>


My rifles both have the P proof mark on the right side of the receiver ring.

AIAproofmarks002.jpg
 
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.303 Lees Enfields were originally proofed twice, one dry load to test the barrel, then an oiled one to stress the action. I would assume that AIA rifle proof is a dry round, the AIA receiver being so different from an original Lee Enfield that there would be no point in an oiled round. Were L39 and L42 conversions fired dry and oiled?
What is the pressure level for 7.62mm MilSpec proof loads?
 
The US Military's high pressure test round for the 7.62x51mm NATO US Service name "M60" is:

Propellent Type IMR 4475 Weight 41gr.
Projectile Weight 171.5gr

Pressure 67,500 PSI

US Military Ball has a pressure of 50,000 PSI

Dimitri
 
British Proof Marks on AIA No 4 Mk 4

tiriaq said:
.303 Lees Enfields were originally proofed twice, one dry load to test the barrel, then an oiled one to stress the action. I would assume that AIA rifle proof is a dry round, the AIA receiver being so different from an original Lee Enfield that there would be no point in an oiled round. Were L39 and L42 conversions fired dry and oiled?
What is the pressure level for 7.62mm MilSpec proof loads?
Click to expand...


Here are British proof marks on an AIA No 4 Mk 4. These pics were not easy to come by...

AIAProof2.jpg

AIAProof1.jpg

AIAProof3.jpg
 
To be sold in the UK, a firearm has to pass proof, and be so marked. It is interesting that the rifle is proofed for 7.62x51. As noted above by Dimitri, US ball has a working pressure of 50 000 psi, proof level of 67 500 psi. SAAMI .308 Winchester specs. allow a maximum average pressure of 62 000 psi (this is maximum allowable average pressure, not necessarily the average pressure of any or all ammunition). Minimum proof pressure is 83 000 psi, maximum proof pressure is 89 000 psi.
 
tiriaq said:
To be sold in the UK, a firearm has to pass proof, and be so marked. It is interesting that the rifle is proofed for 7.62x51. As noted above by Dimitri, US ball has a working pressure of 50 000 psi, proof level of 67 500 psi. SAAMI .308 Winchester specs. allow a maximum average pressure of 62 000 psi (this is maximum allowable average pressure, not necessarily the average pressure of any or all ammunition). Minimum proof pressure is 83 000 psi, maximum proof pressure is 89 000 psi.
Click to expand...



This site seems to show the reverse. It seems commercial manufacturers are loathe to produce ammo at the high end of the pressure range because this ammo has to work in any old junk rifle that somebody may stick it in, not only brand new ultra strong ones.

http://www.smellysmleshooters.net:80/ammopressure.htm

I've gotten two emails today from Bruce Gentner re his proof testing and assembly techniques, which are very carefully done. This is a hand assembled firearm, not a mass production line one.

<Re. Proofing:
>
> The barrel is tested in a fixture with a single proof round and then
> thoroughly examined.
>
> The barreled action is tested with TWO proof rounds with headspace
> set
> to minimum; this has two purposes:
>
> 1. the obvious primary purpose of testing the rifle's integrity and
> 2. a secondary one of "forcefully" seating the locking lugs of the
> bolt
> into the shoulders of the receiver. This is similar to the procedure
> described in my copy of the inspection and acceptance documents
> for the
> SMLE.
>
> Bolts are lapped to their receivers during assembly: all rifles must
> have a minimum of 2.5mm sq. engagement on each lug and be within
> correct
> headspace range before test firing for accuracy.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce



And, re the difference between 7.62 Nato and .308 pressures:


Tom,

Yes, I noticed that there is a bit of contention about relative pressures.

The principal differences between the two cartridges and chambers are
very well explained in Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on the M-1 / M-14.

The way I look at it, the trick is in the chamber, specifically in the
neck and leade areas. The NATO spec allows for reliable safe function in
a huge range of temperatures and weapon cleanliness. Additionally, there
is a NATO cartridge specification but no single NATO chamber
specification. The situation is the same for 5.56 NATO: When FN were
designing the Minimi, they spent a lot of time experimenting with
chamber dimensions to achieve reasonable accuracy and maximum
reliability. The chamber in an M-16 barrel is not exactly the same as in
an M-4 barrel, and the chamber in the old XM-177 was different from the
standard M-16A1.

Commercial .308 Win ammo is supposed to be loaded to SAAMI spec and
adhere to SAAMI dimensions. 7.62 NATO brass is generally thicker than
.308 Win brass, especially at the web area. Pressure curves will be
different for the same components assembled to the different cases.
Additionally, drawings of NATO barrels (L1A1 and M-14) show more
freebore and slightly more generous clearance in the neck and leade
areas than in a SAAMI .308 chamber.

With hand-loaded ammo, especially using heavier than 168gn bullets, it
all goes out the window. I have a bolt action rifle (Omark 44D) that
occasionally gets dragged out to shoot silhouette. Its chamber is very
close to minimum dimensions and was throated specifically to suit 168gn
Sierra Matchkings loaded out longer than "normal". I have shot NATO ball
in it without problems. A barrel set up to shoot a different (shorter)
bullet with a benchrest type chamber with the bullet just touching the
lands may be a different thing altogether.

Cheers,

Bruce
 
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Thanks for manuals Cantom. I have exected a lil' more from them though - could you please ask AIA why they were shy to include disassembly guide and exploded view in dox?
 
Cantom - I know Jim. He is very knowledgable.
The numbers I quoted are from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4 - 1992 for the .308, and US military data TM43.001-27 Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition. Both sources refer to psi, not cup. These relate to theoretical levels, and of course the ammunition has been made many places by many manufacturers, some of whom have their own commercial standards, government standards, others SAAMI, or CIP.
This is a commercial rifle manufactured for sale to civilians. The manufacturer has no control over the ammunition being used, 7.62, .308 or handloaded, unlike service rifles which would only be used with specific ammunition. Most manufacturers wash their hands with respect to handloads, but are satisfied that their product will function in a safe and proper manner with any factory ammuntion.
 
I copied the data for the military rounds from the same place Tiriaq did. :)

TM 43-0001-27
ARMY AMMUNITION DATA SHEETS
SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION
FSC 1305

Dimitri
 
I think that the important thing is that after all the discussion about these rifles, it is apparent that they are being carefully inspected and proofed for use with appropriate ammunition. That is about all any manufacturer can do. Cantom is one of the few people to actually get specific information from the mfr. about the rifle. It is noteworthy that the bolts are being lapped in. It is often the case that unless the proof loads seat the bolt, many rifles leave the factory with only one lug engaging. All the owners who have reported on the shooting qualities of these rifles are pleased with their performance, and it it details in manufacture like this that help with accuracy.
 
phatns2pid said:
I'm sorry, I'm entirely lost. What exactly is being discussed here? In basic terms, please. :)
Click to expand...

We're discussing the AIA Enfield clone rifles being sold by Marstar. They were very much an unknown and have received much criticism due to the reticence of the company to explain themselves and their product. What I've been trying to do is break the logjam and shed some light on this excellent rifle.

All along, Marstar has had their unconditional one year warranty on these rifles, it was never an issue. ;)
 
V1 said:
Cantom, one more question if I may: There are rumors and legends about M10 barrels origin. Anything mentioned by AIA folks on that?
Click to expand...

Sorry, no idea. The two rifles I have have chrome lined barrels of the finest appearance, I also have wondered if they are made from surplus minigun barrels...hehehe...

I don't think these rifles are made in Vietnam...that's all I can say. There is a lot of misinformation circulating about these rifles, most of it pure conjecture. My best guess (and it is a total guess)- certain parts are made offshore, in Vietnam or elsewhere, then the rifles are assembled and tested in Australia to maintain the proper percentage of Australian value added content.
It's really no different than GM dropping a Chinese engine into an SUV in a Canadian plant and calling it a Canadian made vehicle (which is happening). If people are bent out of shape over AIA, best get bent out of shape at GM and Ford too.
 
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Well, what is the correct answer? I have been all over looking at articles by informed people who are p'd at the Company. Is there a difinitive answer yet? It seems that the limited input by the new owners who contribute here is positive. Made in Viet Nam? Why doesn't the Company just come out and say where they're made?...or did they? A lot of money...but....so are the genuine article and they are getting more expensive by the day.
 
Dantforth said:
Well, what is the correct answer? I have been all over looking at articles by informed people who are p'd at the Company. Is there a difinitive answer yet? It seems that the limited input by the new owners who contribute here is positive. Made in Viet Nam? Why doesn't the Company just come out and say where they're made?...or did they? A lot of money...but....so are the genuine article and they are getting more expensive by the day.
Click to expand...

If you had an AIA rifle in your hands for 5 minutes you wouldn't care where it was made.
I don't know where they're made either...if they ever mention it I'll let you know.
 
Calum said:
I would, as I'd be thinking...how do you get replacement parts for this rifle?
Click to expand...

Calum, since you're in Canada, the answer is quite simple. You get service and warranty support through the distributor Marstar. I know this for a fact.

Now, I have a question. Do you honestly plan to fire enough thousands of rounds of ammunition through a bolt action rifle built this heavily to actually hurt it?

In Australia there is also a distributor that deals with warranty issues.
 
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