B&T APC223 Troubleshooting. Light Strikes and and Failures to lock open.

white_knight

white_knight

Regular
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Location
Vancouver
so here i am, almost a year after my APC arrived and things i was hoping would be broken in have not. now before i get started, let me say that i still do truly enjoy this rifle and i prefer it to my swiss arms. i like the overall ergonomics and feel of the rifle more than my swiss, i just wish it was as reliable and dependable as my swiss. some basic info, i am the first owner and this is a first wave Wolverine apc with the 1/9 twist barrel.

25675633887_d99d1f8635_k.jpg


so when i first took this rifle out after receiving it, it would light strike occasionally. about 11 rounds out of the 250ish rounds i fired that day. i noticed that the primer dimples were unusually shallow compared to what i'm used to. even all of my fired brass exhibited the same shallow strikes. i gave it the benefit of the doubt that being a brand new rifle and platform, it needed to be broken in. also i was using new "milspec" american eagle "MSR" .223 ammo. so i figured i would try again later with my usual AE223 blackbox that i'm used to and never had a problem with.

another thing that i noticed and always registers is how light the hammerfall sounds compared to my AR

the light strikes from that day.
40503903922_1ba252c3b3_h.jpg


now fast forward through the year. i've only managed to get it out and handful of times (i usually shoot my AR) but in that time i've conservitavely put about 800 rounds through it since then. enough for me to believe that its no longer "new" and sufficiently broken in. in that time i was still having infrequent light strikes, but the tipping point that has started me to investigate more into these problems is that it began failing to lock open on the last round fired. something that was never an issue before. at this point i'm going to try to resolve this issue.

the next day i went to my LGS to pick up a heavier milspec AR trigger spring, to give it that same positive strike like on my mk18. i got home and swapped the spring, identical to an AR the install was easy. now to troubleshoot the bolt lockup. when i would rack the gun manually i noticed some fluid from under the sticker on the stock (oil?). it seems as the small silver screw backed out a bit and caused the leak, the staking didn't seem to grab it well. i emptied out what was left but now i'm wondering how to refill it? is it oil or something else?

new milspec spring
40503898752_58fff72ae5_h.jpg


hydraulic buffer screw
40503895012_fdb77e0ca2_h.jpg



so today i went out to see if my two problems have been fixed... no, not even by a long shot. worse than ever. it would seem that the spring made no difference. i recorded a lovely montage of some of my problems. this is in chronilogical order with only the in between pauses for hangfires and such edited out.

i noticed in the slow motion that some of the casing are rebounding off the shell deflector into the front of the ejection port as well. examples of that are at 3:06 in the video
40503892192_7336f3e782_h.jpg


so clearly the milspec trigger spring was a bust. when i got home, i took the rifle down to put the old B&T spring back in and compare it to my AR. maybe the firing pin spring is too stiff? gunk in the firing pin channel not allowing the pin to fully protrude?

protrusion looks the same.
40503894042_6b24ec7026_h.jpg


but these are from my AR
39651249565_c9c032b046_h.jpg


and this my APC
40503888812_b63c2fd4d4_h.jpg


hammers and springs look the same. the DD one even functions fine in my APC but i'm sticking to the stock hammer and spring from now on.

so that's all i have. where do i go from here, the only thing i can think of is the firing pin spring being too stiff. any APC owners having the same issues as me? any insight or advise? Mr Wolverine if you're reading this have any ideas? id rather not have to send it back to b&t.

anyways cheers guys.
 
That firing pin is very flat and wide, thats a lot of increase in surface area. I bet a more round firing pin tip would solve the light strikes, increasing the force applied to the anvil in the primer.
 
That firing pin looks stupid.... I've never seen one with a FLAT face like that?? Also maybe check the firing pin channel to see if it's gunked up at all. If a stronger hammer spring didn't make a difference, it certainly could be the firing pin is out of spec. How heavy is the firing pin spring? it should be just enough to keep it rearward, not heavy enough to prohibit forward movement.

Also, the APC uses a hydraulic buffer, correct? As per your description it looks like it might be leaking oil and not doing its job correctly anymore? Cycling too fast which could be the reason it's not locking open on the last round.

When you manually cycle it on an empty mag; does it reliably lock open? If it doesn't then definitely check different magazines. Sometimes the rivets are too long and are catching on the mag spring itself.

Both those problems I'm sure Wolverine can fix if you ship it back to them, or even get them to ship them to you if you know how to change out the parts.
 
FWIW, my B&T Firing Pin is identical to the OP's. My shorty carbine functions 100% and is a terrific little shooter, so the problem is not an out of spec Firing Pin. At least not when compared to mine......
 
F22_RaptoR said:
That firing pin looks stupid.... I've never seen one with a FLAT face like that?? Also maybe check the firing pin channel to see if it's gunked up at all. If a stronger hammer spring didn't make a difference, it certainly could be the firing pin is out of spec. How heavy is the firing pin spring? it should be just enough to keep it rearward, not heavy enough to prohibit forward movement.

Also, the APC uses a hydraulic buffer, correct? As per your description it looks like it might be leaking oil and not doing its job correctly anymore? Cycling too fast which could be the reason it's not locking open on the last round.

When you manually cycle it on an empty mag; does it reliably lock open? If it doesn't then definitely check different magazines. Sometimes the rivets are too long and are catching on the mag spring itself.

Both those problems I'm sure Wolverine can fix if you ship it back to them, or even get them to ship them to you if you know how to change out the parts.
Click to expand...

checked the channel. that picture is with the spring removed to see how far it would go, and compared to my AR it was equal. just flater. had 7 different mags out, you can see some of the different markings in the video. pmags, lancers and LAR.

the buffer is the odd one, it didn't even register to me that it may have been hydraulic fluid. i thought it was oil seeping. the manual is pretty light on technical info. i probably shouldn't have removed the screw when i found out it was loose to try to save the remaining fluid. i wonder if there is a way to refill it or the amount and type of fluid i'd need?

i checked the bolt catch. no damage, crisp catch and it will lock if i do it manually. before i noticed the leak, the charging handle did need to be pulled with some authority to lock open. there was some noticeable resistance. who knows, maybe there was too much pressure in the hydraulic and it blew out? its all speculative.

i know wolverine will take care of me, i was just really hoping for a simpler solution. guess that's the thing with new platforms. early adopters are the beta testers.

Uisge said:
Are you guys running similar ammo?
Click to expand...

when it was brand new i used american eagle MSR .223, i thought it had hard primers and thats what caused my light strikes. but in that video i used my standard and known to be reliable AE223 black box, as well as XM193 and XM855 5.56 ammo to see if maybe the underpowered ammo was causing the lockup issues.


this isn't even all of my light strikes from that trip. i tried a second and even forth strike on 3 of them with no luck. the rest im saving to try in my mk18 and im positive they will fire.
26675473688_35a9a1a655_b.jpg
 
Last edited:
For the price and Swiss quality I can't believe a rifle like this could be performing so badly. Send it back you payed to much to be trouble shooting this rifle like a norinco.
 
Uisge said:
That firing pin is very flat and wide, thats a lot of increase in surface area. I bet a more round firing pin tip would solve the light strikes, increasing the force applied to the anvil in the primer.
Click to expand...

X2 , i had a M305 that was having LPS and the FP looked flat and wide like that , in all my other rifles the FP looked very rounded . Swapped it out and the LPS were gone ..
 
The firing pin and firing pin spring on the APC is the same to that used on the Swiss Arms PE-90s.
Same as in identical compared side by side. Same as in I’d be shocked to discover if they came in different packaging.

The firing pin signature and depth of protrusion on those fired cases is the same as what the Swiss Arms would produce.
I have never had a poor strike in probably 20,000 rounds out of a Swiss Arms rifle.

Having said that, the firing pin spring is quite tough, and in some cases it can be very difficult to compress the firing pin from the rear of the bolt with your finger. The springs on the trigger in the Swiss Arms rifles are up to the task, but they appear considerably more robust than AR trigger springs, and the B&T APC trigger looks not much different than an AR.

My first suggestion is to eliminate the obvious: strip the bolt and clean up the firing pin channel with some CLP and pipe cleaners. Make sure it is dry on re-assembly.
Inspect the firing pin spring and ensure there is no binding of it going over the ‘seat’ of the firing pin where it comes into contact with the firing pin retainer pin.
Test on assembly to ensure there is no binding on the pin with the bolt when you check protrusion by pushing on the rear of the pin.
Shoot some different ammo, and maybe add a bit of variety to the ammo choice, all of it being good quality factory.

If it is still doing it, (and I suspect it probably will) I’d contact Wolverine and look at the hammer spring.
 
beltfed said:
The firing pin and firing pin spring on the APC is the same to that used on the Swiss Arms PE-90s.
Same as in identical compared side by side. Same as in I’d be shocked to discover if they came in different packaging.
Click to expand...

yeah i noticed that as well

25680476907_b632c972db_b.jpg


The firing pin signature and depth of protrusion on those fired cases is the same as what the Swiss Arms would produce.
I have never had a poor strike in probably 20,000 rounds out of a Swiss Arms rifle.

Having said that, the firing pin spring is quite tough, and in some cases it can be very difficult to compress the firing pin from the rear of the bolt with your finger. The springs on the trigger in the Swiss Arms rifles are up to the task, but they appear considerably more robust than AR trigger springs, and the B&T APC trigger looks not much different than an AR.
Click to expand...

right on both accounts. i feel that this is a worlds colliding issue of a stiff swiss firing pin spring interfacing with a weaker AR hammer spring. i have never had a problem with my swiss either, didn't have any fired brass on hand to compare however.

My first suggestion is to eliminate the obvious: strip the bolt and clean up the firing pin channel with some CLP and pipe cleaners. Make sure it is dry on re-assembly.
Inspect the firing pin spring and ensure there is no binding of it going over the ‘seat’ of the firing pin where it comes into contact with the firing pin retainer pin.
Test on assembly to ensure there is no binding on the pin with the bolt when you check protrusion by pushing on the rear of the pin.
Click to expand...

already did all of this.

Shoot some different ammo, and maybe add a bit of variety to the ammo choice, all of it being good quality factory.
Click to expand...

the problem with this is that, while i have run about 5 different types of ammo (ae 223, ae XM193, aeXM855, Remington umc .223 and some hornady superformance) all of which have exhibited the same problems. i dont want to have a rifle that can only shoot 30$ a box ammo. im not trying to feed it garbage, but i don't want it living off filet either.

also i just want t make it clear so i'm not misleading anyone, this video is with the new aftermarket "milspec" trigger spring, not B&T's i installed it because while i was getting frequent light strikes, iw was never this frequent. that's about triple the occurrence. i would do another video with the stock trigger spring, but with the buffer issue i won't be shooting it until that is solved. to be honest the process looks the same, just not as frequent.

rambones said:
are you able to check headspace?
Click to expand...
no unfortunately
 
white_knight said:
the problem with this is that, while i have run about 5 different types of ammo (ae 223, ae XM193, aeXM855, Remington umc .223 and some hornady superformance) all of which have exhibited the same problems. i dont want to have a rifle that can only shoot 30$ a box ammo. im not trying to feed it garbage, but i don't want it living off filet either.
Click to expand...

I was only suggesting the change in ammo to eliminate that as a source of the misfires.
Absolutely it should run on everything you feed it.

white_knight said:
also i just want t make it clear so i'm not misleading anyone, this video is with the new aftermarket "milspec" trigger spring, not B&T's i installed it because while i was getting frequent light strikes, iw was never this frequent. that's about triple the occurrence.
Click to expand...

So it’s doing it with the AR trigger spring and the stock B&T trigger spring.
That is the likely source of the issue then.
A work around could be a lighter firing pin spring, maybe.

B&T should be notified of this through Wolverine.
 
beltfed said:
So it’s doing it with the AR trigger spring and the stock B&T trigger spring.
That is the likely source of the issue then.
A work around could be a lighter firing pin spring, maybe.

B&T should be notified of this through Wolverine.
Click to expand...

yeah the AR spring was unusable. with the stock spring it was never that bad. i have contacted them. i would like to try the swiss arms one but im not shooting the apc until i get the buffer solved. at the start of this i was trying to figure out why it was no longer locking open on the last round. today im noticing the bolt catch has some odd wear on it.

B&Ts bolt catch
39668648215_e7cfd6ee61_h.jpg


my AR with +5000 rounds
26692789268_e5b204e5c1_h.jpg
 
So what actually did Wolverine tell you last year when you first noticed issues?
I’m curious to know what they said that prompted you to decide to debug it yourself.
 
I'm sorry I can't shed light on your problems but I wanted to compliment you on the truly outstanding photography in your posts.
 
norlandgeese said:
So what actually did Wolverine tell you last year when you first noticed issues?
I’m curious to know what they said that prompted you to decide to debug it yourself.
Click to expand...

i didn't contact them. the only issue was the light strikes, so being a new rifle i reserved judgment until i broke the rifle in with at least 400 - 600 rounds. in the year that i've owned this rifle, it had just been the light strikes that i attributed to still needing to be broken in more.
the catalyst for this post was when last week out of the blue it would not lock back on a the last round of any mag i used. first time that issue has ever presented, with 2 light strikes for good measure. manual cycle it would lock, last round fired it wouldn't.

i took the rifle home and first thing is that i stripped it down and cleaned everything. maybe the bolt was short cycling due to resistance from gunk? that when i noticed the buffer thing. then the next day i picked up the milspec spring hoping it would be stiffer and installed it.

a few days later i went to range to see if that solved my problems and made that video. i did not. it wasn't until after i did the write up that Wolverine contacted me, and have seemed nothing but eager to help me solve my issues.

the reason im trying to debug myself is because i would like to document the solutions and have them online, because there's very little technical info of this platform to help with issues. and also because i didn't want to bother them with it until i was convinced it was more break in teething. after last week's "well this is new" lock open issue, the whole thing has started unraveling itself.

Master-G said:
I'm sorry I can't shed light on your problems but I wanted to compliment you on the truly outstanding photography in your posts.
Click to expand...

thank you!
 
What brand name (or type) of lube have you been using?

A few years ago, I’ve had all kinds of semiauto guns behave badly in the fall/winter (sticky/gunky parts) when I used that frog-green-cr&p.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom