Back in 1989 and 1990 I was into Model 1851 and 1861 Colt Navy Revolvers.

M-134.

"Whats that necked rimfire cartridge in the top-center row of the one picture"?
A GOOD QUESTION.----with not a simple answer.

I am not sure if this helps?



Probably a Spencer cartridge....there are different variations in that photo.



Spencer cartridges.


A good reference book on American rimfire cartridges ---third edition 1986.





I sure am not which cartridge that you were questioning....this is from the book shown above.



Some more info regarding Spencer cartridges from the book.






Loading the Model 1860 Spencer carbine. ( Seven cartridges.)









The serial number on this Spencer (53,299) is close to the end of the serial number range (62,000) for these CW Model 1860 Spencer carbines.






A Model 1860 Spencer carbine that did double duty.

First during the Civil War…and then during the Indian War period.

After the Civil War the Spencer carbine was one of the guns that were chosen for alteration by the Springfield Armory between 1867-1874.
Over 11,000 carbines were altered to accommodate the 50-caliber copper cased rimfire (56-52 and 56-50 interchangeable) cartridge.
A small swivel device known as the “Stabler cut-off “was added forward of the trigger to allow for use as a single shot (it keeps the breech from opening completely).


The modified carbines bear an “ESA” inspectors mark in an oval cartouche on the left side of the stock.

The usual markings on top of the frame “SPENCER REPEATING/ RIFLE CO. BOSTON, MASS/ PAT’D MARCH 6 1860”, have long since worn off this gun. (Only slight traces left)

This seven shot repeater was fed through a tubular magazine in the butt and into the receiver. Lowering the operating lever and opening the breech automatically feeds a copper rimfire cartridge into the chamber. The hammer is then cocked and the arm is fired. Dropping the lever after firing then ejects the spent cartridge and brings the next round into position for the next firing.

The Model 1860 Spencer carbine was widely used during the Civil War, and also saw substantial duty during the Indian Wars until the arrival of the Model 1873 Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 caliber carbine.

The Spencer and the Sharps carbines were two of the principal Civil War carbines that ended up doing double duty throughout the Civil War and post war period.

Model 1860 Spencer carbine.
Serial number- 53299.

This gun was converted in 1867 after the Civil War by Springfield Armory to fire the 56-52 or 56-50 cartridge instead of the original 56-56 cartridge which was 52 caliber. A “Stabler cut-off” was also added at that time. The barrel was sleeved for the smaller 50 caliber cartridge with three groove rifling.


From Roy Marcot's book.



Three faint cartouches on the left wrist one oval and two rectangular.
The guns that were converted have an oval cartouche with ESA inspector’s marking. (Erskine S. Allin)

Other inspectors included;
Lucian C. Allin - LCA,
Thomas J. Shepard -TJS
E.C. Wheeler - ECW.



From Roy Marcot's Spencer book (Revised edition 1990)



David
 
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Thanks for your comments Steve.

With the exception of the pieces shown below, the previous posts show all of my “old guns”.






I had not thought about trading as a way to move forward with my collecting ….so that was a new experience for me, and I am pleased with my two new additions.

Hard to find much info on this Remington- Rider DA--New Model Belt revolver -1863-1865.
My last trade.



David
 
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Enjoyed seeing the Civil War items. It looks to me that your ###lord marked holster might be a very early holster made specifically for the army Colt. The later holsters were wider and could accommodate both Remington and Colts. If that's the case, it makes your holster rarer and more desirable.
 
spencers,

"It looks to me that your ###lord marked holster might be a very early holster made specifically for the army Colt. The later holsters were wider and could accommodate both Remington and Colts. If that's the case, it makes your holster rarer and more desirable."

From your lips to Gods ears...spencers!

You might be right???
My info came from this book.





My ###lord holster.





spencers, when I bought this holster from an old collector in the U.S. it was stuffed with paper to keep its shape....a very diligent fellow!



Is this holster for the '58 Remington or the '60 Colt Army .....I don't know.
Here are photos of both?





David
 
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A CW Smith carbine with unusual stock markings.





This Smith carbine has the markings “C.H. Duba” on three areas of the stock. Years ago, I engaged the research people at "The Horse Soldier" in Gettysburg to look into the question. (SEE BELOW)
This was the only time that I did this kind of CW research.

Their research found that Smith Carbines were issued to the 12th Illinois cavalry, and show a John Duba was mustered into "E" Co. Il. 12th Cavalry 1/24/1862, and mustered out on 12/31/1865.

Duba, is an unusual name,... but C.H Duba is not John Duba unless C.H was translated to John.




The inspector’s cartouche is perhaps "J M" .
John Maggs, active in 1862, during the American Civil War, accepted firearms and accessories on behalf of the Federal Army.



My research on C.H. Duba and this Smith carbine.....the only time that I have done this.

As this is a cavalry carbine I decided to focus on John C. Duba----12th Illinois Cavalry.
The other two Duba names were both infantry.

John Duba appears in Company E and Consolidated Company C.

Company "C" 12th (Consolidated) Illinois Cavalry
Company "E" 12th Illinois Cavalry

DUBA, John Private St Ann Feb 28, 1862 (See Co. C, as consolidated)

DUBA, John Private --- --- Mustered out Dec 31, 1865








David

NOTE;

I always wondered if C.H Duba (the name on the Smith carbine) was related to John C. Duba (the CW vet)----perhaps his son?
OR was C.H. Duba really John Duba.

Duba
Name Meaning -Hungarian: from the old secular Hungarian personal names Duba, or Doba, pet forms of Dub or Dob.Possibly French, a variant of French Dubeau.)

Could this Smith carbine have been used in 1866 during the 1866 Fenian raid in Canada?
I have no idea.

As I had been communicating with Joe Bilby (the prolific author of many different books regarding Civil War guns) regarding some other stuff I asked him if he had seen these types of markings on other guns of that period.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your experience, have you seen these types of stamps before on other guns?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a matter of fact, yes,… the Fenians had a tendency, if two of the conversion muskets are an indication, to mark guns like this. One that a friend of mine owns has "Sgt. Noonan" stamped into the wood.

Joe


The 1866 the Fenians were armed with rifle muskets and Smith carbines -- some of the Canadians had Spencers, and the Canadian government bought more Spencers in the wake of the "invasion." Unless they were personal weapons, the Fenians never used Spencers. I mention this in passing in my new book on the Spencer and Henry. The Fenians of 1870 were armed with the Needham conversion of the Model 1863 rifle musket. The story is mentioned in Flayderman's "Guide" the guns were converted in Trenton by Trenton Arms Company, and a Fenian leader was a silent partner in the company.

Joe

Having written a book on the Irish Brigade, and being of Irish American heritage myself, I am very familiar with the Fenians, as well as the perpetual bungling that characterized their efforts. :)

The 1866 invasion was actually tactically successful, if I recall, but the victorious Fenians suffered the usual leadership lapse after the Battle of Ridgeway. At that point most Fenian troops were CW vets.
 
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You can see the difference between yours and the samples in the book. You can see the more defined shape. Also note the strap is sown on and not riveted. I haven't seen many of these but the only ones that I have run across have been for colts. Worthy of some more research but I think it is a much rarer, very early colt holster in great shape; including the plug. Very nice find.
 
Thanks m-134.

spencers, this might be the model for the '60 Army that you were referring to.

Straight stitching on the closure strap instead of a rivet....but two rivets on the belt loop instead of three as shown on my example.



These are recent photos of my holster without the revolvers.





Flap open with the '58 Remington Army.





12th Illinois Cavalry Regiment.

Battle of Gettysburg
The regiment had parts of five companies at Gettysburg and was combined with the 3rd Indiana Cavalry under the command of Colonel George H. Chapman. The combined regiments totaled 588 men and lost 4 killed, 10 wounded and 6 missing.



David
 
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That's the one David. Clearly more "form fitting" than the later production. Different number of rivets simply indicate a different manufacture. Pre 1863 I would think. It would be very tough to replace, especially in that condition, with plug and manufacture stamp. Nice to see a fellow Canadian with an interest in Civil War. I have some nice Confederate items that might be enjoyed on this forum. Will post if I can figure out the process.
Ron
 
Ron,

Please post your photos---"I have some nice Confederate items that might be enjoyed on this forum. Will post if I can figure out the process."

I sent an email to a Duba family member tonight to try and find out more history about the Smith Carbine " C.H Duba" marking....I am really curious to know more about the history of these markings on this Smith carbine



David
 
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Is there any particular source for your collecting you find is better than others, for civil war firearms and other civil war items? I'm well aware of the need to look everywhere, not new to collecting, but sometimes certain sources come up as more reliable (or resourceful) than others.

All beautiful pieces you've got there, great collection. Like the research effort you've put in, that is much of the fun for me.
 
NorthCoastBigBore

Years ago I got many pieces from John Denner.
Longarms (3), revolvers (3), swords (2)....many books.
First CW piece from him in 1994...last piece in 2006.

I think he occasionally offers CW stuff today.

NOTE;

As of today Dec 9 2013 he has a couple of CW pieces-----per his web site.

http://www.denner.ca/weapons/longguns/index.html


There is a fellow that usually has a table at the Montreal show...Nick Healey who often has CW revolvers.
antiqueguns@rogers.com
He lives near Ottawa.

I purchased/traded pieces from a private collector also in Ontario.

The '61 Colt Navy (1989) and Smith carbine (1993) came from the same collector/dealer in Montreal.

Three pieces came from U.S. dealers.
The CW holster came from a U.S. collector on eBay.

I have no idea how many CW collectors there are in Canada.

It is not like Luger collectors who are easier to identify.

The U.S. dealers are really the best retail option.....but expensive for nice pieces.

I am not really on the hunt anymore.......occasionally I trip over something but I have been out of the game for a while.

So after everything said....the best place to look is in your own backyard. (Your market)
For the most part....that has been my experience.

David

First piece purchased from Denner in 1971 when he had his retail store in Montreal.
This was before I really got into collecting CW stuff actively.
My father and I used to target shoot with this pistol.



Lock marked Wheeler & Son----I think that I paid $65 back in 1971.



I do not know much about Wheeler & Son----these is not mine.

A superb cased pair of Percussion Pistols, c1835 by Wheeler & Son, Fine quality, Fine condition
Please ask for full details £SOLD Stock No. 4283





This was quite an accurate rifle--purchased in 1965 from an antique dealer in Montreal.




My father at the range with this rifle back in 1966.

 
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I bought this book in 1993 from Denner----The 45-70 Springfield…written by Albert J. Frasca and Robert H. Hill…published in 1980…..long since out of print. ($90 at that time----crazy!)

I have no idea why I bought this book as the subject fell outside of my CW collecting focus….but I bought a lot of books back then.




As strange things often happen in this collecting game in March 2004 I picked up the rifle shown below while I was purchasing a very nice M1911A1 Colt rig.
The Springfield rifle was just sitting there and the owner wanted it gone.

In retrospect I guess there really was a reason to the purchase the book eleven years earlier.
-------------------------------------
Springfield U.S. Model 1884 Trapdoor Rifle late serial number 561529 near the end of the production of the Trapdoors

This particular model of 1884 was also known as “Model 1888 US Trapdoor Rifle” or “Ramrod bayonet Model or Model 1889.

This was the last model of the Springfield Trapdoor long arms. manufactured between 1889-1893 Serial numbers ran from 500,000 to 565,000- Total 65000 were manufactured.

This particular rifle was manufactured in 1893 and is serial numbered 561529.

Left side of the stock opposite the lock plate inspector’s cartouche SWP (Samuel W. Porter) over 1893.

Circle stamp on the underside of pistol grip with a faint “P” in the center.

U.S. on butt plate tang, “33” stamped on the stock just forward of the buttplate tang.

‘U.S. SPRINGFIELD” on the lock plate.

Left side of the barrel forward of the breech VP over Eagle over P.












I bought the sling in May 2005 on eBay.
Sling U.S. M1887, marked with "Rock Island Arsenal" and inspection stamp "E.H.S." for E.H. Schmitten Leather Goods, Rock Island.
The sling is also marked "AEA” probably a sub-inspector.





David
 
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drm3m said:
NorthCoastBigBore

.......

So after everything said....the best place to look is in your own backyard. (Your market)
For the most part....that has been my experience.

David

First piece purchased from Denner in 1971 when he had his retail store in Montreal.
This was before I really got into collecting CW stuff actively.
My father and I used to target shoot with this pistol.
Click to expand...

Thank you sir!

Keep the photos coming
 
NorthCoastBigBore.

Harry Ridgeway in Virginia specializes in Civil War stuff.
He usually has decent descriptions and browsing his web site can be quite informative.
He has a good reputation from what I understand and has been in business a long time.

I bought an original ramrod for my Model 1841 Mississippi rifle from him back in 2007.
I never thought that I would find one.
$195 USD…..but go and find one!



The rifle was purchased from Denner in 1994.




This was the repro ram rod that originally came with the rifle.



David

http://www.relicman.com/
 
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Some different sources for CW collectables in the U.S.

One of the few CW dealers that also has vintage ammunition.
http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/ammunition_01.htm


http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/collection/index.php

Links to many of the U.S. CW dealers
http://www.civilwardealers.com/firearms.htm

Michael Simens often has some of the finest pieces on the market.
It is interesting to see the prices in the U.S. for this stuff.
http://www.michaelsimens.com/

Michael also has an archive section 'Hall of Fame' on his website-----some awesome guns are shown there.

Harry Ridgeway has an archive section on his web site that describes many of the different CW pieces that he has sold over the years.
I think that this archive is a great source of information.

Good for Harry!

http://www.relicman.com/Archiveaaa.htm

http://www.relicman.com/

David
 
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drm3m said:
Some different sources for CW collectables in the U.S.

One of the few CW dealers that also has vintage ammunition.
http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/ammunition_01.htm


http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/collection/index.php

Links to many of the U.S. CW dealers
http://www.civilwardealers.com/firearms.htm

Michael Simens often has some of the finest pieces on the market.
It is interesting to see the prices in the U.S. for this stuff.
http://www.michaelsimens.com/

Michael also has an archive section 'Hall of Fame' on his website-----some awesome guns are shown there.

Harry Ridgeway has an archive section on his web site that describes many of the different CW pieces that he has sold over the years.
I think that this archive is a great source of information.

Good for Harry!

http://www.relicman.com/Archiveaaa.htm

http://www.relicman.com/

David
Click to expand...

Fantastic photos and information, I'm sure many of us appreciate the leads. For my part, I'm pacing myself as I go through the various sources, very much want to focus as it's just too easy to start picking up pieces. Looking for a theme that interests me and is relevant to my family's involvement.

Lots of reading ahead of me yet...not a lot of free time these days either.
 
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