We have a really nice Remington 700sps tactical at our club...I also like the Varmint version.....they had suggested a Savage(model 10fp) which I believe is the same likeness ie; heavy barrel etc. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?? Thanx
Back to building a "precision rifle"
- Thread starter mikaman
- Start date
Well, neither is a "precison rifle". they are factory rifles and they both shoot about the same. They rely on their looks and their labels to make consumers think they shoot better than they do. Some actually shoot very well in both brands, but all brands have good and bad.
If you look at what competitive precision shooters use for their actions, of those using a factory action to build off, well over 90% use Remington. They are strong, safe, and they are the action after which most customs are patterned. You mention "building" in your post, which i assume to mean you will not simply be adding a bipod and a scope, but actually replacing componenets with proper match grade?
Anyway, buy what YOU like and have fun. True precision is derived when the rifle, the ammo and the shooters are all tuned for each other. The gun is only one over-emphasized part of the equation.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
If comparing factory rifles then the nod would go to the Savage:
Accutrigger can be user adjusted to around 2lbs with a crisp pull and little to no overtravel (some models are down to 6oz). Rem promark cannot AND they are having some serious grief with safety at this time. Not sure how exaggerated this may be but the lawyers are smelling blood so this will likely get very ugly.
The rem can easily have an aftermarket trigger swapped in. Timney, Jewell and Shilen are wonderful additions but that adds costs.
The center feed det mag that is offered with the Savagea is wonderful. Built like a tank, smooth feeding and allows a cartridge almost 3" long. The Rem det mag is not so slick and most come with a hinged floorplate. The mags are also short internally which will limit bullet options and cartridge set up.
Many will put in an aftermarket bottom metal using AI type mags if they want a det mag. When installed properly, these run very well BUT that is a substantial cost both in parts and installation.
Accuracy is a toss up in factory form but I have owned, shot and seen others who have shot some really accurate Savages. Sub MOA with many around the 1/2 min mark is being reported by a large audience around the world. Sales for the Savages have skyrocketed due in large part to the likelihood of fantastic out of the box accuracy.
Rems have not seen to fare as well recently. I have owned several Rem from the 80 and early 90's production and these were nice. One of those that should have never been sold was a Classic in 222Rem. Shot fantastic, looked great, handled wonderfully, old style trigger group that could be tuned to be a gem.
For me, this was the pinnacle of the Rem 700 BDL.
Recent samples of SPS have not really impressed with with their appearance and feel. The new factory trigger is designed by a lawyer and Rem will likely be hiring a raft of them now.
If you decide you want to change parts, the Savage is a tinkerers dream. The Rem needs gunsmith intervention unless you have the tools and machines to do the work.
For max precision, the Rem should undergo the review and touch of a quality smith to make all the mating surfaces true. Many seeking top tier performance will also modify or replace the bolt to ensure true lock up.
By the time a Rem 700 is worked over, you are within a whisker of cost to a true custom action.
For me, I have been shooting competitively with my Stevens and Savage actions basically out of the factory box with only the addition of a quality match barrel prefit and chambered. Again, savings is massive.
If precision involves the performance typically of F class rifles, I am very happy with what the Savage/Stevens platform provides me.
There is no doubt Rems work and have for nearly/over 50yrs. BUT you better be prepared for spending anywhere from 2 to 4 times the cost vs a comparable Savage build.
If the Vbull match was any indication, I would say the prevalance of Savage rifles on the line has grown tremendously. I did a rough estimate and it looked like 1/3 of the rifles were Savage in either factory formed or the action the basis of a precision build.
Times they be a changing, and many shooters are getting alot of gun from the Savage line up.
There were quite a few Sightrons at this match too
Jerry
Accutrigger can be user adjusted to around 2lbs with a crisp pull and little to no overtravel (some models are down to 6oz). Rem promark cannot AND they are having some serious grief with safety at this time. Not sure how exaggerated this may be but the lawyers are smelling blood so this will likely get very ugly.
The rem can easily have an aftermarket trigger swapped in. Timney, Jewell and Shilen are wonderful additions but that adds costs.
The center feed det mag that is offered with the Savagea is wonderful. Built like a tank, smooth feeding and allows a cartridge almost 3" long. The Rem det mag is not so slick and most come with a hinged floorplate. The mags are also short internally which will limit bullet options and cartridge set up.
Many will put in an aftermarket bottom metal using AI type mags if they want a det mag. When installed properly, these run very well BUT that is a substantial cost both in parts and installation.
Accuracy is a toss up in factory form but I have owned, shot and seen others who have shot some really accurate Savages. Sub MOA with many around the 1/2 min mark is being reported by a large audience around the world. Sales for the Savages have skyrocketed due in large part to the likelihood of fantastic out of the box accuracy.
Rems have not seen to fare as well recently. I have owned several Rem from the 80 and early 90's production and these were nice. One of those that should have never been sold was a Classic in 222Rem. Shot fantastic, looked great, handled wonderfully, old style trigger group that could be tuned to be a gem.
For me, this was the pinnacle of the Rem 700 BDL.
Recent samples of SPS have not really impressed with with their appearance and feel. The new factory trigger is designed by a lawyer and Rem will likely be hiring a raft of them now.
If you decide you want to change parts, the Savage is a tinkerers dream. The Rem needs gunsmith intervention unless you have the tools and machines to do the work.
For max precision, the Rem should undergo the review and touch of a quality smith to make all the mating surfaces true. Many seeking top tier performance will also modify or replace the bolt to ensure true lock up.
By the time a Rem 700 is worked over, you are within a whisker of cost to a true custom action.
For me, I have been shooting competitively with my Stevens and Savage actions basically out of the factory box with only the addition of a quality match barrel prefit and chambered. Again, savings is massive.
If precision involves the performance typically of F class rifles, I am very happy with what the Savage/Stevens platform provides me.
There is no doubt Rems work and have for nearly/over 50yrs. BUT you better be prepared for spending anywhere from 2 to 4 times the cost vs a comparable Savage build.
If the Vbull match was any indication, I would say the prevalance of Savage rifles on the line has grown tremendously. I did a rough estimate and it looked like 1/3 of the rifles were Savage in either factory formed or the action the basis of a precision build.
Times they be a changing, and many shooters are getting alot of gun from the Savage line up.
There were quite a few Sightrons at this match too
Jerry
Remington actions do not need to be re-worked, and since the US military has been using them for decades - and will continue to use them for decades, I think they have proven their function and reliability. I think the numerous posts on here regarding the stellar results of the Rem700 5R refute the notion they are in any way an inferior factory offering. My last remington project required no truing at all.
Savage makes a perfectly good factory rifle, but this "Savage is better" koolaid must be tempered by the realization that you are marketing your own line of wares.
Savage makes a perfectly good factory rifle, but this "Savage is better" koolaid must be tempered by the realization that you are marketing your own line of wares.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Remington actions do not need to be re-worked, and since the US military has been using them for decades - and will continue to use them for decades, I think they have proven their function and reliability. I think the numerous posts on here regarding the stellar results of the Rem700 5R refute the notion they are in any way an inferior factory offering. My last remington project required no truing at all.
Savage makes a perfectly good factory rifle, but this "Savage is better" koolaid must be tempered by the realization that you are marketing your own line of wares.
And Quantico doesn't have a large armoury dedicated to the care and modification of their Rem's?
And many gunsmiths around the world, don't massage Rems on a daily basis to build various precision rifles?
There is no custom action industry developed as a by product of this needed work?
Or that companies like PTG, Brownells don't offer replacement parts and tooling to service this need?
Would you pick up a generic SPS and just ask Mick to spin on a barrel with none of his excellent TLC?
would you use a box stock Rem 700 action to build your next F class rig?
I have never said Savage was 'better' Just a whole lot less money to get the same thing.
And I put my ideas and PRODUCTS in competition right next to everyone elses. Seems my concepts DO translate to some very nice performance...
Jerry
Depends on what you mean by "whole lot less" and "same thing" I guess.
Thanks thats what a lot of guys at our club have basically been saying. I used to shoot lots of rifle when I was in my teens/early twentys however now that I am in my 40's it has been pistols for the last 15 years, (cdp and ipsc). Just lately I have had the bug to start shooting rifle again...lost my roots and need to hone my skills.
juanvaldez
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sudbury, Ontario
Savage makes a perfectly good factory rifle, but this "Savage is better" koolaid must be tempered by the realization that you are marketing your own line of wares.
That being said, just curious...whats better, cut or buttoned rifling?
To the OP...sorry for hijacking. I'm a fan of savages. I prechamber my own barrels and have had excellent results. The price is definately right, For under 1000$ you can get into a gun with a match barrel capable of some really good performance and you are not limited to factory chamberings. While it is true that savage does not have even close to the amount of aftermarket parts as do the remmies, things are changing. Check out Bear_Blade's build pics to see just how good a savage can look too!!
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
If you read my project articles, I list pricing on my rifles quite clearly. Others have also listed their projects costs. Just have a look in this forum.
For the Rem builds, there are others that have posted their build costs too. Then you can ask those who shoot Rem for F class and see what their costs are.
Then you can also look in the EE and see what Rem 'customs' are selling for vs Savage builds.
That should give you lots of info to compare. My website has barrel prices if you want to compare that too.
As for "same as", accuracy reported by a WHOLE bunch of shooters are all over the net
I build my rifles to compete in F class and my rifles have no issue holding the V bull even if the shooter has 'issues' ;-)
Certainly help me put some plaques on the wall....
Jerry
If you're doing an 'apples to apples' comparison, then the 700 SPS Tactical compares more to the Savage Precision Carbine than the 10FCP. Both have 20" barrels. As mentioned before, both are factory rifles and you take your chances with the barrels that come with them. So far, my SPS T in .223 seems to be a bit more accurate, running around .6 MOA average (5 shots) vs my PC in .308 thats running around .8 MOA. May just have hit the magic combination quicker in the .223. Without any mods, I'd say the Accustock on the PC is probably a bit sturdier than the Hogue on the SPS T. I'm using the SPS T as my coyote/groundhog rifle and the PC as a fun .308 to use for mid-range shooting and a backup hunting rifle. I wouldn't consider either of them to be true 'precision' rigs.
As far as build costs go, and I did look at both the Rem and savage platforms, The savage was cheeper buy quite a bit. I have never owned either brand, but did get a chance to shoot both (factory) and liked the feel of the Savage trigger better. As for OOTB accuracy, and yes, I know that both can be made to shoot better with a hand loaded, best for this rifle round, but useing factory match ammo, the Rem was 7/8 10 rnd at 100, the savage 5/8" Neither shabby with factory fodder, and consider I'm out of practice, but as is I liked the Savage. Thus the basis for my build.
Rifles tested... Savage 10FCP, and REM 700P Both quite comparable, things I did like about both for sure. Please consider this was an unbiased side by side Give-em-a-try range day. No lab coats here. The Savage did make me smile though.
Rifles tested... Savage 10FCP, and REM 700P Both quite comparable, things I did like about both for sure. Please consider this was an unbiased side by side Give-em-a-try range day. No lab coats here. The Savage did make me smile though.
Chinbullco
Regular
- Location
- NW Alberta
Bighorn Arms
Anyone have experience with these actions? Thirty degree cone breach, floating, interchangeable bolt heads, same footprint as M700, and they take an M700 style trigger (Jewell). Combines the only worthy Savage feature with all the wonderfullness of the M700.
Anyone have experience with these actions? Thirty degree cone breach, floating, interchangeable bolt heads, same footprint as M700, and they take an M700 style trigger (Jewell). Combines the only worthy Savage feature with all the wonderfullness of the M700.
- Location
- Halifax, NS
I was going to buy a 10FP but found that the 12 VLP DBM offers a factory 1:7" twist barrel for .223 so I am buying that instead. Can't wait to see how it shoots 62 grain factory bullets.
