You are talking about shooting .22LR right? And expecting to score on target, whatever that target may be, at distances out to 200 or more yards?
Ballistic program is way off compared to actual shot.
- Thread starter Crouchy
- Start date
You are talking about shooting .22LR right? And expecting to score on target, whatever that target may be, at distances out to 200 or more yards?
I read the whole thread...and didn't see where anyone asked what chronograph was being used?
R.
Thats why I suggested to skip it, it sounds like the weak link.
SilentRadar
CGN Regular
- Location
- Durham Region
What I want to know is where you placed at the match.
SilentRadar
CGN Regular
- Location
- Durham Region
East Elgin has snaking winds on range that the match was shot on. It's hard to read the winds there when going out to longer distances. Yards to Meters shouldn't have made a difference, both units were listed in the match book. No reason to be guessing at the drops.
Hey everyone. Glad to see lots of attempts to help. I will try my best to answer all the questions and try and narrow down my reason for posting here.
I wasn't really "guessing" for the whole match. It was more of an educated guess as I had confirmed drops at 50 yard increments out to 300 yards.... now the match was set up in meters. I was super happy to see that the COF did list both metres and yards. Where i was guessing was the targets were all at 25 meter increments. SO between my confirmed hits at 50 yard increments and then the intermediate yardages of the targets it made it tricky. I was able to do most of it on the go. I still had a blast. I will back up the statements about the kestrel.... the mental stress and pressure is not awesome to deal with. It is nice to be confident. I was lots confident in me and my gear. I was alittle leary of my drops. I did well at spotting my misses. I also shoot a vortex diamondback. I am super happy with that scope. You are right it is not as good as my sightron SIII but it is also a third the price. Spoting misses is how I managed to get alot of the farther out hits. That means however that I have misses..... I would like to be a bit closer in the initial shots.
This is the main reason for trying to get the app validated as I would like to be able to plug in any yardage or meter range and have a very close estimate from the program. I am glad that I did get confirmed drops the week before as it definitely helped me. Strelok was just way too off once past 150 yards.
I will one day by a nice wind metre but for now I just wander over and ask some one who has one. I agree that gear does help but it only goes so far and the rest is on the shooter. For now I am just entering the game so gear is limited.
I used a caldwell chrony. It has worked well for us in the past. I will spend sometime with the videos posted here and see if I can get the app to line up with known drops. That is the first place for me to start... Also a tough spot as I have the free strelok and not the pro version. I think the trajectory validation input is only on the pro version... I may have to upgrade.
I wasn't really "guessing" for the whole match. It was more of an educated guess as I had confirmed drops at 50 yard increments out to 300 yards.... now the match was set up in meters. I was super happy to see that the COF did list both metres and yards. Where i was guessing was the targets were all at 25 meter increments. SO between my confirmed hits at 50 yard increments and then the intermediate yardages of the targets it made it tricky. I was able to do most of it on the go. I still had a blast. I will back up the statements about the kestrel.... the mental stress and pressure is not awesome to deal with. It is nice to be confident. I was lots confident in me and my gear. I was alittle leary of my drops. I did well at spotting my misses. I also shoot a vortex diamondback. I am super happy with that scope. You are right it is not as good as my sightron SIII but it is also a third the price. Spoting misses is how I managed to get alot of the farther out hits. That means however that I have misses..... I would like to be a bit closer in the initial shots.
This is the main reason for trying to get the app validated as I would like to be able to plug in any yardage or meter range and have a very close estimate from the program. I am glad that I did get confirmed drops the week before as it definitely helped me. Strelok was just way too off once past 150 yards.
I will one day by a nice wind metre but for now I just wander over and ask some one who has one. I agree that gear does help but it only goes so far and the rest is on the shooter. For now I am just entering the game so gear is limited.
I used a caldwell chrony. It has worked well for us in the past. I will spend sometime with the videos posted here and see if I can get the app to line up with known drops. That is the first place for me to start... Also a tough spot as I have the free strelok and not the pro version. I think the trajectory validation input is only on the pro version... I may have to upgrade.
ScottMisfits
CGN Regular
Just reading what Rick posted up on Facebook about the event, it was a 27% hit ratio. Out of a possible 100 points, the top shooter got 66. Touch stages mixed in with challenging wind conditions.......
The equipment can help, but you have to be able to shoot first and foremost.
I used to race RC cars and a former world champ is someone I raced with quite a bit. We started talking about the speed and response of the steering and if the faster equipment was something I could feel. I was honest and said yes, I can feel it. But I also added in, just because it’s better or faster doesn’t mean I can utilize it. A bad shooter is a bad shooter, even with all the fancy whiz bang gear, but being effective takes practice, and just when you think you have it, change something up, no matter how small, and see if you still have it.
I’m not saying that this is the case here, just something to think about.
The equipment can help, but you have to be able to shoot first and foremost.
I used to race RC cars and a former world champ is someone I raced with quite a bit. We started talking about the speed and response of the steering and if the faster equipment was something I could feel. I was honest and said yes, I can feel it. But I also added in, just because it’s better or faster doesn’t mean I can utilize it. A bad shooter is a bad shooter, even with all the fancy whiz bang gear, but being effective takes practice, and just when you think you have it, change something up, no matter how small, and see if you still have it.
I’m not saying that this is the case here, just something to think about.
I had my buddy do a test with his Kestrel yesterday using the parameters for Eley Force 22 LR...
A 15 degree F temperature change accounted for 1 MOA of vertical drop at 275 meters.
I tested the same 15 degree value for Eley Force in RCBS.Load and it called 15 degrees 2.24 inches at 300 yards.
Unless you have a set of temperature adjusted tables and a thermometer you will miss that during a match and it will cause you to edge off the plate. Sure... that alone isn't necessarily the whole reason, but it's an imperfect game and the closer we can get to a solid zero, the fewer misses we will have.
I find it off putting that so many of you want to blame the shooter for misses when there are environmental factors (besides wind) that will cause you to miss regardless of how good you can "shoot".
With the right come ups, the rounds go where you put them.
With wrong come ups, they wont go where you expect and you will be playing catch up instead of feeding off your confidence during a match.
I've just seen this happen enough to know that the Kestrel compensates for things few of us in reality take the time and effort to establish without such a device.
Field usable ballistic devices with AB software accounts for other factors such as rotation of the earth, spin drift, the vertical effect of wind... it goes on and on and just provides an engineered solution that is just that much closer than what I could possibly bother to do manually.
No this will not take a last place shooter and put him into first place, but it can easily take a top 30 percent shooter and put him into the top 20 percent.
A 15 degree F temperature change accounted for 1 MOA of vertical drop at 275 meters.
I tested the same 15 degree value for Eley Force in RCBS.Load and it called 15 degrees 2.24 inches at 300 yards.
Unless you have a set of temperature adjusted tables and a thermometer you will miss that during a match and it will cause you to edge off the plate. Sure... that alone isn't necessarily the whole reason, but it's an imperfect game and the closer we can get to a solid zero, the fewer misses we will have.
I find it off putting that so many of you want to blame the shooter for misses when there are environmental factors (besides wind) that will cause you to miss regardless of how good you can "shoot".
With the right come ups, the rounds go where you put them.
With wrong come ups, they wont go where you expect and you will be playing catch up instead of feeding off your confidence during a match.
I've just seen this happen enough to know that the Kestrel compensates for things few of us in reality take the time and effort to establish without such a device.
Field usable ballistic devices with AB software accounts for other factors such as rotation of the earth, spin drift, the vertical effect of wind... it goes on and on and just provides an engineered solution that is just that much closer than what I could possibly bother to do manually.
No this will not take a last place shooter and put him into first place, but it can easily take a top 30 percent shooter and put him into the top 20 percent.
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I have to agree mostly with Maple as with 22lr your wind calls, temp,...etc all come into affect once youare 200+ yards out. The shooter is an obvious concern but if a shooter is confident in their ability then having good dope at real time is very helpful. I am confident in my shot atleast enough to know if I pulled a shot at steel... I can shoot well enough to know when it is me or my ammo/dope. End game would definitly be a high end kestrel... but for now it is just not in the budget.
Thanks for everyones input. I am definitely going to keep playing with the apps and will keep validating my real time dope. I will likely start creating charts to go hand in hand with the programs.
Thanks for everyones input. I am definitely going to keep playing with the apps and will keep validating my real time dope. I will likely start creating charts to go hand in hand with the programs.
SilentRadar
CGN Regular
- Location
- Durham Region
The biggest factor that causes people to miss is because they don't know how to build a stable position and when to break the shot. No amount of gear is going to help you learn how to do that. It all comes down to practice and experience.
If you can break the shot in the middle of a 4MOA target and your shot is blown less than 2MOA in either direction you are still going to hit the target. Spot the hit, make adjustments and move on. If you have built an unstable position and are swinging the full 4MOA of the target, you are going to have a hard time.
SilentRadar
CGN Regular
- Location
- Durham Region
Kestrel 2000 or 2500 ($200) with a good, adjustable app ($30) will do what a Kestrel 5700 ($800) does, only you have to rely on your cellphone battery and holding 2 devices. That's what I do, though I my mistake was I did that before the match and didn't adjust during for the temp and pressure changes. That's the human element that $570 removes for you. If I was on a two-way range, heck yes get me a 5700. For matches and targets that don't shoot back, the 2000 will do what I need it to.
I am new to shooting 22RF at +300 yard PRS type matches as well.
I do have some experience with centerfire and there is comparatively little information on rimfire with regard to accurate Doppler verified ballistic coefficients, never mind drag curves.
You need two things;
1) a kestrel or similar that gives Density Altitude. Used 4000 series kestrels go for $150-200 on the EE and will do everything you need
2) a ballistic solver (app) that will correct the trajectory from actual drop data that you will input.
I'm using AB mobile which allows you to input three distance/drop values and has proven to be dead on accurate from 50-330 yards. I didn't even chronograph the ammo, I just used the advertised velocity and G1 ballistic coefficient and let the app do the rest.
The Applied Ballistics app has a very simple interface to input exact distances to do point solutions. The trajectory on a 22RF is too steep to be attempting to interpolate between 25 yard range card distances.
Do your solutions on exact yardages. Close isn't good enough especially on circular or diamond targets where a slight error in elevation will cause shots to leak out the corners on an otherwise ok wind call.
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Not sure what the terrain looks like were you are Ryan, but at meaford, there is almost no chance of spotting a miss in the grass from the shooting stages anyway. Once in a while maybe if you get lucky.
From a high end spotting scope on a tripod, you might catch the vapor trail, but that's a whole lot harder under recoil of the rifle.
Even the stage spotters often say they could not see them.
At this 22 match there was often nothing behind the target to spot the impacts. Just flat ground for 50 yards or a berm that rounds are flying over.
At meaford you had this same issue so why after your learnings did you not buy one.
I do not mean to sound so callous but there is so much talk about "gear" making the shooter win - that is not the case.
PRS type shooters are friendly folks - I am sure someone would share DA and wind with you.
I do not mean to sound so callous but there is so much talk about "gear" making the shooter win - that is not the case.
PRS type shooters are friendly folks - I am sure someone would share DA and wind with you.
I had a blast and learnt a lot from the match. My goal was to be in the middle of the field at the end of the day. Also, to see how my gear performed or failed because I've never shot out that far.
I didn't have a ballistic calculator but as you can imagine, one of the awesome guys on my squad helped me by inputted the projectile data into Strelok and texted the screen shots to me. Shooting Federal Auto Match 1200 fps.
I already have a tight group at 50 and a BDC out to 125 yards but anything beyond that, I was zeroing out on the stage. That first zero messed with my head but I was there to gain experience. After a few more zeros I noticed that I was dialing for meters but the screen shots were I yards. After dialing for yards I was getting hits again and ended up in the bottom third.
So, I feel that the real thing here is, how high were you expecting to place and ideally how high would you like to finish given your experience? Top 10 or 1st?
Don't take any truth from a greenhorn like me but I was happy being in the bottom 10 or 11 (can't remember don't care) but if you are happy with top third, awesome! It’s a good day. If you wanted higher than that maybe it just wasn't your day, you need more hours competing (lord knows I do) or you need a Kestrel.
I didn't have a ballistic calculator but as you can imagine, one of the awesome guys on my squad helped me by inputted the projectile data into Strelok and texted the screen shots to me. Shooting Federal Auto Match 1200 fps.
I already have a tight group at 50 and a BDC out to 125 yards but anything beyond that, I was zeroing out on the stage. That first zero messed with my head but I was there to gain experience. After a few more zeros I noticed that I was dialing for meters but the screen shots were I yards. After dialing for yards I was getting hits again and ended up in the bottom third.
So, I feel that the real thing here is, how high were you expecting to place and ideally how high would you like to finish given your experience? Top 10 or 1st?
Don't take any truth from a greenhorn like me but I was happy being in the bottom 10 or 11 (can't remember don't care) but if you are happy with top third, awesome! It’s a good day. If you wanted higher than that maybe it just wasn't your day, you need more hours competing (lord knows I do) or you need a Kestrel.
Did a bunch of ballistic results tests taking into consideration...
1) Effects of Changes in Temperature
2) Vertical Offset caused by wind speed and direction
3) Direction of shot (Rotation of earth)
4) Spin Drift
5) Muzzle velocity changes relative to temperature
Individually these variables seem almost insignificant, but collectively, no so much.
If you have a capable ballistic calculator, you can perform these calculations in advance for a specific range and develop a series of printed tables that you can refer to hopefully matching the scenarios you will encounter at the match.
If you attempt to use ballistic software that does not consider the points mentioned above, you will get some hits but your effective target size will be much smaller than it actually is. In reality you will miss a certain number of targets as a direct result of ballistic data error.
Do you “need” a Kestrel or Garmin 701?
No, not exactly, but it will certainly help.
Without it, you better be prepared to generate and organize a book of ballistic data for a specific match at a specific range.
This assumes you actually know what range you will be firing on when you get there and what direction the range is pointing.
There is certainly a lot of prep work described above and supports the conclusion that anyone who attempts to claim that doing well in a match is entirely the result of “shooting skill”, and not solid ballistic data, I will immediately lay down the BS card. You cannot have one without the other. High ranking in a match is the result of having both.... In addition to a plethora of other factors.
So ya… I downloaded and bought the Applied Ballistics phone app a couple days ago, which I used to conduct a post mortem and illustrate ballistic error is large enough to cause many of the misses I made at Aymer and Meaford.
Until recently I hoped that I could adjust on the fly during the match and overcome such error, but that thinking was born of complacency.
I also ordered a Garmin 701 which should arrive around the end of March.
It will be interesting to see how the numbers compare between my buddy’s Kestrel and the Garmin.
Will I win my next PRS match? I doubt it, but I’m confident that I’ll do a little better in the overall standings and have a little more fun. I hope to be able to spend more energy on breaking clean shots, and less energy on attempting to process what is not working when the data is not correct.
1) Effects of Changes in Temperature
2) Vertical Offset caused by wind speed and direction
3) Direction of shot (Rotation of earth)
4) Spin Drift
5) Muzzle velocity changes relative to temperature
Individually these variables seem almost insignificant, but collectively, no so much.
If you have a capable ballistic calculator, you can perform these calculations in advance for a specific range and develop a series of printed tables that you can refer to hopefully matching the scenarios you will encounter at the match.
If you attempt to use ballistic software that does not consider the points mentioned above, you will get some hits but your effective target size will be much smaller than it actually is. In reality you will miss a certain number of targets as a direct result of ballistic data error.
Do you “need” a Kestrel or Garmin 701?
No, not exactly, but it will certainly help.
Without it, you better be prepared to generate and organize a book of ballistic data for a specific match at a specific range.
This assumes you actually know what range you will be firing on when you get there and what direction the range is pointing.
There is certainly a lot of prep work described above and supports the conclusion that anyone who attempts to claim that doing well in a match is entirely the result of “shooting skill”, and not solid ballistic data, I will immediately lay down the BS card. You cannot have one without the other. High ranking in a match is the result of having both.... In addition to a plethora of other factors.
So ya… I downloaded and bought the Applied Ballistics phone app a couple days ago, which I used to conduct a post mortem and illustrate ballistic error is large enough to cause many of the misses I made at Aymer and Meaford.
Until recently I hoped that I could adjust on the fly during the match and overcome such error, but that thinking was born of complacency.
I also ordered a Garmin 701 which should arrive around the end of March.
It will be interesting to see how the numbers compare between my buddy’s Kestrel and the Garmin.
Will I win my next PRS match? I doubt it, but I’m confident that I’ll do a little better in the overall standings and have a little more fun. I hope to be able to spend more energy on breaking clean shots, and less energy on attempting to process what is not working when the data is not correct.
AB is a great program - make sure you get it set up right (zero height, zero offset, BC, MV, etc.) or you will be getting incorrect data (GIGO effect).
Not sure if spin drift and Coriolis (only has a 2-6" impact at 1000 yards really) will have much of an impact on 22 matches but getting the atmospherics correct will make things easier for sure.
Not sure if spin drift and Coriolis (only has a 2-6" impact at 1000 yards really) will have much of an impact on 22 matches but getting the atmospherics correct will make things easier for sure.
