Ballistics school

Range finder in the field?? Wind guage? Computerized prinout of how high to shoot. Man there isnt the time. I cant belive that people would claim that flat shooting isnt important to accuracy in the field.

a flat shooting bullet is not necessary nor important to accuracy in the field, practice at various known distances and wind conditions is far more important, practice will also contribute to consistancy .... and at 200 yds + there should be plenty of time to range, estimate wind deflection and bullet drop, and calm your body before squeezing the trigger.

What a flat shooting bullet gives you in the field is more room for range estimation error, and usually more speed... which usually gives more energy downrange(based on calibre, bullet weight and design) and it is the energy transfer that provides the mechanism for the efficient kill
 
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Range finder in the field?? Wind guage? Computerized prinout of how high to shoot. Man there isnt the time. I cant belive that people would claim that flat shooting isnt important to accuracy in the field.


You missed the whole point I was making!

None of that stuff is important. You can't buy proficiency be it with "fast" rifles or fancy gadgets.

The ONLY thing that will help you to hit animals at longer ranges is practise! There are NO shortcuts. YOU must learn to judge distance. YOU must learn how to judge wind drift. YOU must practise to improve your shooting skill. YOU must learn what shots NOT to take.

If you think a .257 Weatherby or 300 RUM will make a marksman out of a novice shooter then you still have a lot to learn....................
 
Your post was bang on with the exception of that statement.A good laser rangefinder reads distance far more accurately than any person can judge distance.

Yes they do, there is no arguing that. I should have phrased that better.

With that said though I have been hunting big game for going on 40 years without using a range finder. Over the years I have probably put around 100 deer, moose, elk and caribou on the meat pole. Out of all those animals I shot at only 2 were not recovered. (and those 2 were not "range" issues but rather a much younger me taking low odds shots on running deer.) The one thing in common with all those dead critters was that they were all taken at under 300 yards - a self imposed limit that I chose as I found my personal range estimation was not reliable beyond that distance.

I did buy a range finder 5 or 6 years ago and another better one last year. I do use them and if stand-hunting the edge of a clear cut or alfalfa field where a 400 yard shot may be possible I think they are the best thing since sliced bread. The 2 longest shots I have ever taken at an unwounded animal were possible because of a rangefinder but even then if didn't practise as much as I do I don't know if they could have been pulled off as well as I did. (One was a mulie buck at 460 yards taken with a 30-06 and the other was a flag-tail at 430 using a 300 wsm.) I guess what I am saying in a long-winded way is that the rangefinder is a useful tool to have in the toolbox but it is not enough to compensate for the lack of basic skills.
 
For the same caliber depending on your skills ans tools there are two way toward accuracy. The first one is to select heavy bullets like 175gr Sierra MatchKing in .308 to reduce the amount of wind corrections but you will increase your maximum ordinate in order to hit the target. With a 155gr Palma round your trajectory will be flatter but more prone to wind drift.

In any given caliber there are many choice for bullet but it depends on you for which variable you want to reduced while increasing the other.

Another example to support my though. In the military, the 5,56mm has a flatter trajectory than a 7,62mm up to 550 meters. The 5,56mm is normally used with light machinegunner and rifleman who rarely possess any rangefinding capability expect their own guess. This caliber is more forgiving for range estimation error but is more prone to wind deflection at range beyond these two kind of infantryman but a designated marksman may use this round to its maximum potential up to 600 meters.

The 7,62mm is mainly use with general purpose machine guns and sniper rifles. The users of these two weapons usually possess laser rangefinder or other tools (such as M22 binos with reticle, Mils dot, etc) to get the correct range prior to fire. They usually engage at further range than the 5,56mm users so that is why they have those tools. They must take wind correction into account (expecially the sniper) but the caliber they are using is more forgiving (even more with the .338 Lapua which requires roughly 50% of wind corrections compare to the .308 WIN).

Lighter bullet goes flatter and heavier bullets are less prone to meteorological (Barometric pressure, Temperature, wind).
 
Mackillan: You have posted several times re. black powder rifles. These can be extremely accurate. However they usually operate around 1200 to 1300 fps. with trajectories that resemble the oft stated rainbow. Trajectory is only a part of accurate shooting. Quality of barrels, stiffness of action, matching bullet length to twist, having bullets that are uniform etc etc all play their own part in making a rifle accurate. Add to this the skills needed by the shooter such as steadiness, follow through , trigger control and so on. Accuracy to me and many others means consistent performance not the trajectory. To be sure a flatter trajectory may make hitting the target easier but it is not necessarily a sign of better accuracy . A gun that can not group its shots into a small diameter is not accurate despite whatever velocity it may produce. To see this one has only to look at the fact most guns will produce their best accuracy somewhere below the maximum velocity----read flattest trajectory.
 
Range finder in the field?? Wind guage? Computerized prinout of how high to shoot. Man there isnt the time. I cant belive that people would claim that flat shooting isnt important to accuracy in the field.

Flat trajectory is a relative term. Let's compare two spitzer bullets, one with a MV of 2700 fps and the other a MV of 3000 fps. Given a 200 yard zero, the bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2700 will print 8" low at 300 yards while the bullet with the 300 fps advantage prints 6" low at 300. Is there a difference? Yes. Can you make use of the advantage in the field? No. You'd be hard pressed top see 2" at 300 yards never mind make it work for you. Should we our bullet a further 200 fps to 2500 fps, the drop at 300 becomes 10". You might be able to see a 4" difference at 300 yards, but again, can you make use of it? I doubt it. With any of the 3 loads, once the range exceeds 225 yards you will have to aim a bit high.

Before you think about shooting beyond 300 yards, or even beyond 200 yards, get out with your rifle and see what your limitations are; not from a bench, but shooting from field positions. When you cannot keep your bullets within 4 inches of your intentional point of impact, you have exceeded your ability. Now what happens when you are shooting in a full value wind, or a half value wind. Do you know what difference that will make to the flight of your bullet? What happens to the shot when the mirage runs thick? The only way you can determine what you can do under certain conditions is to go out and do it, but your ability is far more important than the flatness of your bullet's trajectory in normal big game hunting.
 
Flat trajectory is a relative term. Let's compare two spitzer bullets, one with a MV of 2700 fps and the other a MV of 3000 fps. Given a 200 yard zero, the bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2700 will print 8" low at 300 yards while the bullet with the 300 fps advantage prints 6" low at 300. Is there a difference? Yes. Can you make use of the advantage in the field? No.

At 400 yards or more,that 200fps can be an advantage,especially when wind drift is considered.
 
| have hunted since 1970 so lets dispense with the newbie garbage. I stand by the claim that a flatter trajectory makes it easier. I can judge distance better than most but a flatter trajectory, all other factors being equal, decreases the effect of an error. It is one factor. I won't attempt to explain the scientific method. Many experts desire a flatter shooting rifle. Some desire to improve what they own in relation to the various factors. Some dont, or can't afford it. I have never claimed that other factors are not important.
 
I agree totally, and if you dont have a perfect range finder in your brain, which none have no matter what their claims, missing a center by one inch because of a misjudge of distance vs missing by 2 inchs may be imortant in the field. But not by most on this board as they have bionic brains with internal range finders. I hear these boasts by fat guys in gun stores all the time.
At 400 yards or more,that 200fps can be adigital range finders. advantage,especially when wind drift is considered.
 
| have hunted since 1970 so lets dispense with the newbie garbage. I stand by the claim that a flatter trajectory makes it easier. I can judge distance better than most but a flatter trajectory, all other factors being equal, decreases the effect of an error. It is one factor. I won't attempt to explain the scientific method. Many experts desire a flatter shooting rifle. Some desire to improve what they own in relation to the various factors. Some dont, or can't afford it. I have never claimed that other factors are not important.

If your .30/378 is sighted in at 200 yards with the highest BC bullet that you can find, a shot at 400 yards will still hit low enough that you will miss. I don't know anyone who can judge to within 50 yards of 400 yards every time. The point is that trajectory of the big game bullet doesn't matter out to the zero range. Beyond the zero range, I agree that the flatter the round shoots the easier it is to compensate for mistakes in range estimation. Once the 300 yard barrier has been breached, either a sight with a complex reticle with hold offs or adjusting the sight for the bullet drop is the only way to ensure a hit. At ranges over 400 yards a hunter who shoots 2 MOA is out of his league.
 
Once the 300 yard barrier has been breached, either a sight with a complex reticle with hold offs or adjusting the sight for the bullet drop is the only way to ensure a hit.

I have taken many big game animals at over 300 yards without adjusting the scope,and without complex reticles.My zero point is 300 yards,and the point of impact with my 7mmstw launching 140gr bullets is only 6" low at 400 yards,and 18" low at 500 yards.It really isn't that difficult to judge 6" or 12" of holdover if you know the approximate size of the target.
 
I have taken many big game animals at over 300 yards without adjusting the scope,and without complex reticles.My zero point is 300 yards,and the point of impact with my 7mmstw launching 140gr bullets is only 6" low at 400 yards,and 18" low at 500 yards.It really isn't that difficult to judge 6" or 12" of holdover if you know the approximate size of the target.

That's true, but shooting at such ranges requires talent and equipment beyond the average hunter's, if it is to be done with a reasonable expectation of success.
 
That's true, but shooting at such ranges requires talent and equipment beyond the average hunter's, if it is to be done with a reasonable expectation of success.

A lot of shooting practice helps.
 
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Well this thread is heading for the ####ter but I have a question.

With regards to rate of twist, is their an optimum rate of spin you want to empart on a bullet.

If I understand correctly, a longer bullet will spin slower than a smaller one when fire out of the same rifle?
 
If I understand correctly, a longer bullet will spin slower than a smaller one when fire out of the same rifle?

A longer bullet requires a faster spin to stabilize than a shorter bullet. (or must be launched at a higher velocity)

If fired out of the same rifle all bullets - regardless of weight - will spin at the same rate.
 
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