barrel break in question?
- Thread starter ruger22
- Start date
How do you gets feel about copper removal? Remove it completely or leave it in? I have a new 300 wm that I put 20 rounds through (federal blue box). It's copper heavily. I far as I can see inside the barrel there's copper deposits in the grooves.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Not enough experience to have a strong opinion.
What I will say is always do WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.
If your 300 is shooting well, don't mess with it....
I have had to remove copper from several rifles, it very much affects accuracy in my experience. Barnes TTSX were the copper culprits and I quit using them in my ultra high velocity rifles. Regular gilding metal jackets don't seem to leave much in the bore at all, at least not compared to Barnes copper bullets.
I've got barrels that foul heavily with some bullets and not at all with others. A fun one is CEBs taking out the fouling left by Swifts.
Some barrels gather copper heavily and still shoot. Inevitably they need to be dirty before they start grouping. Others, usually custom barrels steadfastly refuse to get any copper fouling at all.
I've come to believe that a barrel is only foulled if it quits shooting because of it . Otherwise it's "Treated" or "seasoned". Fouling sounds like bad word.
Some barrels gather copper heavily and still shoot. Inevitably they need to be dirty before they start grouping. Others, usually custom barrels steadfastly refuse to get any copper fouling at all.
I've come to believe that a barrel is only foulled if it quits shooting because of it . Otherwise it's "Treated" or "seasoned". Fouling sounds like bad word.
He is right but also wrong. Yes, buttoned or hammered barrels won't have the tool marks that cut barrels do, it's a different process with a different tool. To say buttoned or hammered barrels have no tool marks and need no break in is false. My Weatherby Vanguard II barrel is FULL of tool marks, it is Howa made and they hammer forge. The tool marks come from the bore reamers (it's like train tracks all the way down) and only hand lapping can remove these marks if the barrel maker reams undersize and laps to finished bore dimension. In any barrel making process, chambering is done after any lapping so there will always be some minute burrs and roughness from that to "break-in". I've had the rifle for 3 years now and initially only did the "shoot a box of 20 at the range and clean at home" method of "break-in". I've since torn my hair out trying to find a consistent load, gave up on factory ammo and even handloads have been all over the map. A borescope finally revealed the issue, it was so fouled with copper it wasn't even funny.
A serious session with JB bore paste was needed to clean it out. What I've discovered is a single shot will lay down so much copper in the barrel it takes several days soaking in solvent to remove it all. This barrel is what's called a "fouler". I'm in the process of a real "break-in" procedure with it to see if any improvement can be made, it may be one of those barrels that can't be "broken in". So far it took me 3 range sessions to shoot 20 rounds by cleaning down to bare metal after each shot. Last range session I shot 3-shot groups for a box of 20, cleaning between each group. I'm using JB bore paste at the range so I can actually shoot more than 1 shot per session. A pre-procedure target, after barrel had been cleaned 100%. Shot a couple sighters then got to work groups left to right, top to bottom. It starts out great, this barrel has a lot of accuracy potential or I wouldn't be bothering. Second group we are now around 10 shots from clean and it starts to open up. Groups 3-5 accuracy is gone and the barrel is totally fouled. So much for a sub-moa guarantee.
Next up after doing the 20 1-shot clean regime I did the 3-shot groups. First three aren't pictured they were done at 50 yards while I played with my .22's. At 100m all groups were sub-moa from a bare metal clean barrel with cheap Federal Blue Box ammo. Ok, so there is no warranty claim to be had here it does what they advertise... just not for a full box of ammo without cleaning. Best accuracy cannot be had until a few shots have laid down a thin even layer of copper to stabilize bullet velocities, but if it fouls out after these few shots and spits fliers, you can't win!
Of course, even fouled out it still shoots better than "minute of deer" and is entirely serviceable as the hunting rifle it is. It won't shoot a full target for score but it is not a competition rifle. I just have the compulsion to try and squeeze out the consistency in this barrel for the great accuracy it can be capable of! Even if I do manage to tame this beast, it'd have been a wiser choice to rebarrel it with a custom barrel than to go through the time and ammo expense of this "break in" on such a fouler of a barrel.
hometownhero
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Toon Town, Sk
Use a better cleaner then. An hour sitting around waiting for wipeout to work and all copper is gone. I used to use hoppe's and tried for days to get copper to come out. It never did come out.
RM4U5...........What you have is a defective barrel and Bevan would never have let this go out to a customer. A bore as rough as you describe should have been returned to the maker and been replaced, either barrel or rifle. A hammer forged barrel should be the smoothest bore of all, the mandrel finish is like glass.
I've never seen a hammer forged rifling barrel show any signs of a scratch in the lands or grooves. The technology has been around for 70 years or more, they have it down pretty good.
Even Ruger that runs their tooling to failure basically never showed any poor hammer forged bores that I've seen.
Even Ruger that runs their tooling to failure basically never showed any poor hammer forged bores that I've seen.
I wouldn't be so sure, it is typical of mass produced sporter barrels to be very rough inside. Bevan, being a custom barrel maker, laps out the tool marks like all other custom makers do. Why else buy their barrels instead of the factory barrel? Factory barrel makers skip this process due to the time and expense involved. See this borescope video by Lilja comparing a Remington 700 barrel which is also hammer forged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA The mandrel may be smooth, but it does not eliminate the tool marks from the bore drilling/reaming process. You know warranty will just clean the barrel, shoot a sub-moa group like I've shown it will do when clean, and tell me it's fine. They may also refuse warranty since I've bedded and free-floated it, factory stock has a fore-end pressure point.
Interesting article on barrel break-in, fairly lengthy http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/How+To+Break+In+a+Rifle+Barrel.html About two thirds down under Other Factors a borescope pic of a Weatherby/Howa is shown with the "railroad track" like reamer marks I've seen in mine. My Savage MKII .22 has exactly these reamer marks, even my Anschütz though it is less severe as they perform some sort of finishing process at the factory. The rimfires shoot very well despite the tool marks, largely in part since copper fouling is not a factor in them.
For solvents I've tried Hoppes Benchrest, Butches Bore Shine and G96. Have some KG-12 on order. Hitzy did you look at those barrels with a borescope? Everything looks perfect to the naked eye.
There are good and bad barrel makers, so of course there will be flaws in some OEM hammered barrels. The mandrels SHOULD be perfectly smooth carbide steel. If done properly, there are no tooling marks in the bore, since nothing was cut in the bore.
Sabatti shows how they do it in this video.
[YouTube]oALJDh43K3I[/YouTube]
You will always have custom barrel makers claiming their way (broach/button) is better then hammer forged because it's not feasible for them to buy the machines for the few barrels that they produce.
Sabatti shows how they do it in this video.
[YouTube]oALJDh43K3I[/YouTube]
You will always have custom barrel makers claiming their way (broach/button) is better then hammer forged because it's not feasible for them to buy the machines for the few barrels that they produce.
You're correct in that the hammering process shouldn't add any more tool marks to the barrel. Note the steps that occurred before rifling: deep hole drilling the blank and reaming. That's where the tool marks come from and you can even see them by eye in that big bore they show being borescoped. Pause fullscreen at 6:18 and you'll see the marks on the land at 10 o'clock. Nothing but hand lapping can remove these tool marks, and no barrel making process can prevent them.
The question I have to ask is what benefit does hammer forging provide the shooter? The big companies want to lead you to believe it is somehow superior to other methods but the truth is they're the ones who benefit from the investment because they can literally "hammer out" a fully rifled barrel in mere minutes on the machine as well the advanced machine can even do some of the contour/profiling work on the barrel as it is rifled. They save time on the prep work and finishing steps this way To match the volume they produce with button or cut rifling they'd need a massively larger facility with many more machines and employees. Bye Bye profits (or we'd just be paying more for firearms). Hammering imparts massive stress into the barrel steel and they make no mention of stress relieving the barrels. So as your barrel gets hot from shooting it can warp due to some stress movement and shoot to a different POI. Allow it to cool and it returns to it's original shape. Buttoning also imparts stress though custom barrels are then stress relieved. Cut rifling is stress free and actually removes some of the drill/reamer marks but this method is painfully slow. How many bench rest shooters use a hammer forged barrel?
If the barrels made by production factories were that good, why is the successful list of the 3/4" hunting rifle challenge so small?
Are we discussing bench rest custom barrels, factory forged, cut, or button rifled, hunting rifles, or custom target rifles, or bore finish and fouling? You are jumping all over the place.
Did you watch the sabatti video? They explain the forging process aligns the grain and relieves stess. All the different rifling processes can produce barrels more accurate then people can shoot, and each has it's pluses and minuses.
What if a custom barrel maker could produce a hammer forged, cryo treated, tennifer coated BR barrel that held it's accuracy for 15,000 rounds instead of 1500?
He is right but also wrong. Yes, buttoned or hammered barrels won't have the tool marks that cut barrels do, it's a different process with a different tool. To say buttoned or hammered barrels have no tool marks and need no break in is false. My Weatherby Vanguard II barrel is FULL of tool marks, it is Howa made and they hammer forge. The tool marks come from the bore reamers (it's like train tracks all the way down) and only hand lapping can remove these marks if the barrel maker reams undersize and laps to finished bore dimension. In any barrel making process, chambering is done after any lapping so there will always be some minute burrs and roughness from that to "break-in". I've had the rifle for 3 years now and initially only did the "shoot a box of 20 at the range and clean at home" method of "break-in". I've since torn my hair out trying to find a consistent load, gave up on factory ammo and even handloads have been all over the map. A borescope finally revealed the issue, it was so fouled with copper it wasn't even funny.
A serious session with JB bore paste was needed to clean it out. What I've discovered is a single shot will lay down so much copper in the barrel it takes several days soaking in solvent to remove it all. This barrel is what's called a "fouler". I'm in the process of a real "break-in" procedure with it to see if any improvement can be made, it may be one of those barrels that can't be "broken in". So far it took me 3 range sessions to shoot 20 rounds by cleaning down to bare metal after each shot. Last range session I shot 3-shot groups for a box of 20, cleaning between each group. I'm using JB bore paste at the range so I can actually shoot more than 1 shot per session. A pre-procedure target, after barrel had been cleaned 100%. Shot a couple sighters then got to work groups left to right, top to bottom. It starts out great, this barrel has a lot of accuracy potential or I wouldn't be bothering. Second group we are now around 10 shots from clean and it starts to open up. Groups 3-5 accuracy is gone and the barrel is totally fouled. So much for a sub-moa guarantee.
Next up after doing the 20 1-shot clean regime I did the 3-shot groups. First three aren't pictured they were done at 50 yards while I played with my .22's. At 100m all groups were sub-moa from a bare metal clean barrel with cheap Federal Blue Box ammo. Ok, so there is no warranty claim to be had here it does what they advertise... just not for a full box of ammo without cleaning. Best accuracy cannot be had until a few shots have laid down a thin even layer of copper to stabilize bullet velocities, but if it fouls out after these few shots and spits fliers, you can't win!
Of course, even fouled out it still shoots better than "minute of deer" and is entirely serviceable as the hunting rifle it is. It won't shoot a full target for score but it is not a competition rifle. I just have the compulsion to try and squeeze out the consistency in this barrel for the great accuracy it can be capable of! Even if I do manage to tame this beast, it'd have been a wiser choice to rebarrel it with a custom barrel than to go through the time and ammo expense of this "break in" on such a fouler of a barrel.
It sounds like a candidate for Dyna Bore Coat.
Yes I did watch it and told you the specific point in the video you can see the tool marks in their barrels. You seem to be saying that a hammer forged barrel should have no tool marks because nothing was cut during rifling and be stress free. At 4:45 in the video he talks about the stress that is added into the barrel, not relieved, and tries his best to make it sound like this stress is a good thing. They do have tool marks because they were cut before rifling (drilled/reamed) and your mandrel can be smooth as glass but that has no effect on the preexisting tool marks. You and C-fbmi are implying my barrel is defective due to the tool marks and roughness it has. I'm saying it is normal for all factory barrels to have tools marks to varying degrees and it is only when you go through the lapping process that custom makers perform will you get a smooth barrel free of imperfections. It all ties back into bore finish and fouling. It is obvious a barrel maker needs to take great care in production to ensure a fine finish which translates into reduced fouling and greater accuracy. Any shortcuts in drilling/reaming/honing make for rough tool marks in the barrel as well maintenance/cleanliness of the mandrel is critically important to prevent defective impressions. Rough barrel is going to foul and accuracy suffers as a result. That's where I'm at Howa obviously isn't taking much care in their production and I've got a rough, fouling bore.
Since this all got so sidetracked, I'm attempting to see if a "break-in" procedure will smooth out my barrel, reduce it's fouling and bring consistency back to it's accuracy. I know it can be accurate and shoot groups like this:
It just bugs me that it averages 1"-1.5" groups even with handloads simply because it fouls up too quickly.
hometownhero
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Toon Town, Sk
Tried that on a few guns. Didn't do diddly for copper fouling.
Yes I did watch it and told you the specific point in the video you can see the tool marks in their barrels. You seem to be saying that a hammer forged barrel should have no tool marks because nothing was cut during rifling and be stress free. At 4:45 in the video he talks about the stress that is added into the barrel, not relieved, and tries his best to make it sound like this stress is a good thing. They do have tool marks because they were cut before rifling (drilled/reamed) and your mandrel can be smooth as glass but that has no effect on the preexisting tool marks. You and C-fbmi are implying my barrel is defective due to the tool marks and roughness it has. I'm saying it is normal for all factory barrels to have tools marks to varying degrees and it is only when you go through the lapping process that custom makers perform will you get a smooth barrel free of imperfections. It all ties back into bore finish and fouling. It is obvious a barrel maker needs to take great care in production to ensure a fine finish which translates into reduced fouling and greater accuracy. Any shortcuts in drilling/reaming/honing make for rough tool marks in the barrel as well maintenance/cleanliness of the mandrel is critically important to prevent defective impressions. Rough barrel is going to foul and accuracy suffers as a result. That's where I'm at Howa obviously isn't taking much care in their production and I've got a rough, fouling bore.
Since this all got so sidetracked, I'm attempting to see if a "break-in" procedure will smooth out my barrel, reduce it's fouling and bring consistency back to it's accuracy. I know it can be accurate and shoot groups like this:
It just bugs me that it averages 1"-1.5" groups even with handloads simply because it fouls up too quickly.
Have you tried moly coated bullets?
I know people piss and moan about moly, but I still use it (15 years later) in all my over-bore rifles. I started when I got a brand new Savage 12 Varmint in 22-250, sounds exactly like your situation...that rifle would foul badly by 10 rounds and start throwing rounds, bore was not nice. Switched to moly bullets and it would hold it's accuracy indefinitely as long as my cleaning regimen was to liberally oil the bore after shooting, just one really wet patch, then store it muzzle down in the safe.
When it was time to shoot, dry patches and off to the fields and it was always bang on.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes I did watch it and told you the specific point in the video you can see the tool marks in their barrels. You seem to be saying that a hammer forged barrel should have no tool marks because nothing was cut during rifling and be stress free. At 4:45 in the video he talks about the stress that is added into the barrel, not relieved, and tries his best to make it sound like this stress is a good thing. They do have tool marks because they were cut before rifling (drilled/reamed) and your mandrel can be smooth as glass but that has no effect on the preexisting tool marks. You and C-fbmi are implying my barrel is defective due to the tool marks and roughness it has. I'm saying it is normal for all factory barrels to have tools marks to varying degrees and it is only when you go through the lapping process that custom makers perform will you get a smooth barrel free of imperfections. It all ties back into bore finish and fouling. It is obvious a barrel maker needs to take great care in production to ensure a fine finish which translates into reduced fouling and greater accuracy. Any shortcuts in drilling/reaming/honing make for rough tool marks in the barrel as well maintenance/cleanliness of the mandrel is critically important to prevent defective impressions. Rough barrel is going to foul and accuracy suffers as a result. That's where I'm at Howa obviously isn't taking much care in their production and I've got a rough, fouling bore.
Since this all got so sidetracked, I'm attempting to see if a "break-in" procedure will smooth out my barrel, reduce it's fouling and bring consistency back to it's accuracy. I know it can be accurate and shoot groups like this:
It just bugs me that it averages 1"-1.5" groups even with handloads simply because it fouls up too quickly.
Good god man of course forging adds stresses, and it is a good thing! It also aligns the grains which is also a good thing, why do you think it's done?
I'm at work so I don't have time to give you a complete metallurgical breakdown showing the benefits of forging so you will have to do your own research, but just stop.
