Barrel break in
- Thread starter stovepipe699
- Start date
Someone show me even ONE comprehensive study that shows a large sampling of barrels from the same batch of steel, the same caliber, the same lot of powder, the same lot of bullets, the same primers, shot side-by-side...that shows a quantitative measurement of "fouling" "accuracy" or the other reams of variables purported to be influenced by break-in, and I will believe you.
Until then (bearing in, mind that the barrel makers and ammo/component makers are the only true beneficiaries of barrel break-in. No wonder they have never conducted just such a study) the practice is merely usubstantiated lore, based on opinion - not fact.
Break-away! I love people that break in. Especially you magnum guys, and everyone shooting high overbore indexed cartridges.
Until then (bearing in, mind that the barrel makers and ammo/component makers are the only true beneficiaries of barrel break-in. No wonder they have never conducted just such a study) the practice is merely usubstantiated lore, based on opinion - not fact.
Break-away! I love people that break in. Especially you magnum guys, and everyone shooting high overbore indexed cartridges.
With quality hand lapped barrels there is very little to break in... only the throat area that was freshly cut with the reamer.
Whether breaking a barrel in or not has any benefit or not has not been proven or dis proven. If proper procedures are followed it will not harm anything. At worst you are out some time and a few bullets..
It is a never ending controversy with strong opinions
.
Whether breaking a barrel in or not has any benefit or not has not been proven or dis proven. If proper procedures are followed it will not harm anything. At worst you are out some time and a few bullets..
It is a never ending controversy with strong opinions
.
gushulak
CGN frequent flyer
Been my experience as well, I think barrel break in procedures are more time and effort than they are worth, and on paper you will not see any difference. I have a 10K custom .308Win that didn't have any break in procedures, shot 1/2 MOA from the start, after 400 rounds its averaging about .25MOA now. No barrel break in.
Is it worth it, debatable. Some guys swear by it, others don't. Most who advocate I see seem to be the barrel builders. More rounds, more cleaning, more barrels I think is their reasoning, nothing to do with breaking in barrels, breaking you bank account!
Because of the (~50%) biased opinions whether barrel break-in is worth it or not, I chose to break in my 700 ltr before doing any long distance shooting... That way if one day we find out for sure it must be done, its already been taken care of 
That just is a myth, it is not a valid argument... 20 or 30 rounds while breaking a barrel in (if you choose to do that) is not going to wear any barrel out quicker so any barrel maker is going to make more money because of it.
Most guys (if they choose to break a barrel in) at the same time are fire forming brass, working up a maximum pressure and even a bit of load development.... just what you do with a new barrel.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I get that you won't be convinced, but given that the break-in of a cut rifled .308 barrel chambered for the .308 Winchester uses up .002% of its accuracy life, the argument that its a huge boom for barrel sellers doesn't really wash. If I buy a new barrel every 10 years or for that matter every 5, you won't get rich because I shoot a few rounds for break-in. I doubt that there is one of your barrels chambered for .30-378 for every 100 that are chambered in .308, and if the round count for a .300 Winchester is half of the .308's, the .300 won't make you richer much faster.
I do however appreciate that you go to the trouble of bringing in one of the best barrels that can be threaded into an action and sell them for a fair price.
Component manufacturers might receive a benefit from us breaking in our new barrels, but those 20-50 rounds were going to be fired anyway, and lets face it, it's only the hardcore enthusiast who bothers.
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I'm not saying barrel break-in is a huge boom, I'm saying its a waste of your time and money.
If it makes you feel better, then by all means go ahead. "breaking-in" a 308 will represent a small percentage of a 308's life, but it can represent a substantial part of many barrels with useful lives measured in the hundreds of rounds, not thousands.
It is voodoo science, right up there with creams to make your willy bigger
If it makes you feel better, then by all means go ahead. "breaking-in" a 308 will represent a small percentage of a 308's life, but it can represent a substantial part of many barrels with useful lives measured in the hundreds of rounds, not thousands.
It is voodoo science, right up there with creams to make your willy bigger
It is a myth
I read an article by a famous gun maker quite a while ago. His contentions were that break in is unnecessary. His belief was that a good barrel maker knows how to remove machine marks by lapping the bore, and will do so then charge you for the work. He felt is was sort of arrogant by the end user to believe that they could improve on the finish that a professional barrel maker put into the bore. Another consideration was that break in uses up precious barrel life on expensive barrels, some of which only give 800 to 1000 rounds before needing to be set back or replaced. Many barrel makers don't mind if you feel the need to break in a barrel because it just means you will have to buy more barrels sooner, and that is good for buisness. After reading that, I have decided on my next barrel, I'm just going to shoot it and enjoy it without break in.
I read an article by a famous gun maker quite a while ago. His contentions were that break in is unnecessary. His belief was that a good barrel maker knows how to remove machine marks by lapping the bore, and will do so then charge you for the work. He felt is was sort of arrogant by the end user to believe that they could improve on the finish that a professional barrel maker put into the bore. Another consideration was that break in uses up precious barrel life on expensive barrels, some of which only give 800 to 1000 rounds before needing to be set back or replaced. Many barrel makers don't mind if you feel the need to break in a barrel because it just means you will have to buy more barrels sooner, and that is good for buisness. After reading that, I have decided on my next barrel, I'm just going to shoot it and enjoy it without break in.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Certainly the owner of a new barrel should follow the recommendations of the barrel maker. Having said that, the break-in has nothing to do with the bore. You are treating the lead ahead of the chamber that was probably not cut by the barrel maker prior to his lapping the bore. The proof of benefit is your observation of the reduction of the amount of fouling from the beginning to the end of your break-in procedure. Its your barrel, but after spending the money on a high quality barrel, I would prefer to get the most out of it.
This is from Border Barrels. They make cut and button barrels and have an excellent rep although not seen to often here.
""But first, a few words on why 'shooting in' a barrel is necessary. No matter how well lapped or how finely finished the internal surface of the barrel is, the first few bullets down the barrel seem to leave a significant fraction of themselves behind as heavy metal fouling. A subsequent bullet shot up a barrel with heavy metal fouling will tend to press that fouling into the barrel causing dints and roughness in a bore that the barrel maker has gone to a lot of trouble to make smooth and even. So it is important to get all that metal fouling out before shooting another bullet up the barrel.""
""But first, a few words on why 'shooting in' a barrel is necessary. No matter how well lapped or how finely finished the internal surface of the barrel is, the first few bullets down the barrel seem to leave a significant fraction of themselves behind as heavy metal fouling. A subsequent bullet shot up a barrel with heavy metal fouling will tend to press that fouling into the barrel causing dints and roughness in a bore that the barrel maker has gone to a lot of trouble to make smooth and even. So it is important to get all that metal fouling out before shooting another bullet up the barrel.""
I put a new Bartlein barrel on my target rifle this year. The first shot down the barrel not only showed heavy copper fouling on the lands, but in the grooves as well After 6 patches of Sweets 7.62 with dry patches in between the barrel was clean. The second shot down the barrel showed less fouling and only required 2 patches of Sweets and some dry patches to clean it. I then fired 3 shots and the barrel showed very little fouling, but I cleaned it any way. The next 5 shots showed no fouling, but again I cleaned it anyway.
I then switched to Moly coated bullets and have not cleaned it since. I have 300 rounds down the barrel and the groups are still tight.
I don't think the 10 rounds I fired breaking in the barrel hurt the accuracy or barrel life at all, but it sure makes the cleaning easier.
After 6 patches of Sweets 7.62 with dry patches in between the barrel was clean. The second shot down the barrel showed less fouling and only required 2 patches of Sweets and some dry patches to clean it. I then fired 3 shots and the barrel showed very little fouling, but I cleaned it any way. The next 5 shots showed no fouling, but again I cleaned it anyway.I then switched to Moly coated bullets and have not cleaned it since. I have 300 rounds down the barrel and the groups are still tight.
I don't think the 10 rounds I fired breaking in the barrel hurt the accuracy or barrel life at all, but it sure makes the cleaning easier.
Not to scientific here but with my last 5 barrels ( a mix of Lilja, Mclennan, and Krieger) I just shot the first one and the last 4 I did a break-in regime. The last 4 do not copper foul and the one that I just "shot" does copper foul.
Obviously I have no way to prove that the first barrel would not have fouled if I did a break-in?
When building a custom gun there is ZERO way to quantify that any one thing that you do will lead to more accuracy. Tighter chamber, neck turning, bushing a firing pin, Measuring loaded ammo run-out? Who knows? Why take the chance? It is only 20 rounds so I choose to do it. Screw a quality barrel onto a square action and then most about precision shooting beyond that is voodoo science anyways.
Obviously I have no way to prove that the first barrel would not have fouled if I did a break-in?
When building a custom gun there is ZERO way to quantify that any one thing that you do will lead to more accuracy. Tighter chamber, neck turning, bushing a firing pin, Measuring loaded ammo run-out? Who knows? Why take the chance? It is only 20 rounds so I choose to do it. Screw a quality barrel onto a square action and then most about precision shooting beyond that is voodoo science anyways.
mightyhunter
CGN Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, Alberta
http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html
This article convinced me not to break in barrel...
I clean the barrel really good when I get it home from the store, then run 5 patches coated with Lyman bore cream through the barrel 500 times for each patches as fast as I can go(in a control manor). I then clean every 50-100 rounds after that.
This article convinced me not to break in barrel...
I clean the barrel really good when I get it home from the store, then run 5 patches coated with Lyman bore cream through the barrel 500 times for each patches as fast as I can go(in a control manor). I then clean every 50-100 rounds after that.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Never broke one in, never intend to. I much prefer to just get shooting, and at least with guntech chambering a couple customs for me on fresh reamers, haven't had any issue of copper ahead of the chamber in the throat. Or anywhere in the barrel for that matter... I'm on the why bother side, but have nothing against folks who like to. Personal preference... my guns, my choices, your guns, your choices.
I can't believe this thread is still going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
There is no test that will prove it is a benefit.
There is no test that will prove it is a detriment.
If proper cleaning procedures are followed barrel life is not shortened if you do it any more than barrel life is shortened if you don't do it. 20 or 30 shots in the life of a barrel is diddly squat.
It is a choice if you want to do it... but for those who don't want to do it, your argument that barrel life is shortened is wishful thinking on your part. The individuality of barrels would affect barrel life more than 20 or 30 shots through it.
.
There is no test that will prove it is a benefit.
There is no test that will prove it is a detriment.
If proper cleaning procedures are followed barrel life is not shortened if you do it any more than barrel life is shortened if you don't do it. 20 or 30 shots in the life of a barrel is diddly squat.
It is a choice if you want to do it... but for those who don't want to do it, your argument that barrel life is shortened is wishful thinking on your part. The individuality of barrels would affect barrel life more than 20 or 30 shots through it.
.
Ok guys how about this article, it seems Mike Rock has another theory what do you think about it?
I've spent the last few months trying to get a better understanding of what a barrel break-in process is and how to properly clean a rifle. What to do and what not to do.
I've spent a lot of time on this board, the BR board and other shooting boards listening to members and what works for them. Conclusion, what works for some, doesn't work for others. Being an engineer in the telecommunications field, when it's broke or you don't understand something you go back to manufactures specs and schematics. So that's kinda what I did on this subject.
I've talked with 4 metallurgist and 3 barrel manufactures (Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen), on the subject. From a scientific point of view, they all said and agreed to pretty much the same thing.
First, barrel break-in processes keep them in business. This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your brand new match barrel. Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine. Mike Rock at Rock Creek barrels gave me the most detailed explanations on barrels and ballistics. Mike has his degree in metallurgy; he was also the chief ballistics engineer for the Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. Stan Rivenbark was one of the top ballistic engineers for Raytheon before he retired in the 70's and also has a degree in metallurgy. I also talked with two local metallurgists here in North TX. I confirmed my findings with each person to see if they agreed or disagreed. Conclusion, they all agreed with each other's assessments.
When Mike worked at Aberdeen proving grounds, the Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. When the primer ignites there is enough pressure to move the bullet forward into the lands. The bullet then stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet starts and stops at least twice and sometimes three times before it leaves the barrel. This is fact.
If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, you've created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So what's the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping two or three times as it leaves the barrel, that's two or three places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore. The use of JB's and Flitz can and will take you down to metal-to-metal contact. For all intents and purposes, JB's and Flitz are not the most ideal products for cleaning your rifle.
According to Mike Rock, and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. Shilen, Hart and Rock Creek will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets and for good reason. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it is when applied to bullets. There is no way possible to coat a bore with moly bullets. The bullet contact surface in the barrel is only so big. But when your round goes off, moly comes off the contact surface of the bullet in the throat area of the rifle and is bonded to the barrel due to the excessive heat and pressure. We're not talking coated or adhered to, we're talking bonded, d**n near permanent. With this, some of the jacket coating comes off the bullet. Follow this up with another round and you've now embedded the copper jacket between layers of bonded moly. This is the beginning of the black moly ring, which ruins countless barrels and is so hard; it can hardly be scraped off with a screwdriver's corner edge. This is what happened to a new Shilen SS select match barrel I had to have replaced with less than 400 rounds through it. I can't talk for Fastex as I don't or none of the folks I talked to knew enough about the product to comment on it. When I talked to Mike about my new barrel and the barrel break-in process, this is what he had to say. He first hand laps each barrel with a lead lap. He then uses two products from Sentry Solutions, a product called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coats until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes or so through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore.
With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break-in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regimen of cleaning and if you have to use JB's or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal. He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, don't be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don't let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.
Well that's the long and skinny from the scientific point of view on the subject. If you're ever in doubt about the real condition of your barrel, take it to someone who has a bore scope and even better if someone has a bore scope that can magnify the view. You may be surprised at what is really going on in your barrel.
I'm sure this will spark a debate here and there, but that's good thing. The more information we have, the better off we'll be.
Elmer
I've spent the last few months trying to get a better understanding of what a barrel break-in process is and how to properly clean a rifle. What to do and what not to do.
I've spent a lot of time on this board, the BR board and other shooting boards listening to members and what works for them. Conclusion, what works for some, doesn't work for others. Being an engineer in the telecommunications field, when it's broke or you don't understand something you go back to manufactures specs and schematics. So that's kinda what I did on this subject.
I've talked with 4 metallurgist and 3 barrel manufactures (Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen), on the subject. From a scientific point of view, they all said and agreed to pretty much the same thing.
First, barrel break-in processes keep them in business. This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your brand new match barrel. Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine. Mike Rock at Rock Creek barrels gave me the most detailed explanations on barrels and ballistics. Mike has his degree in metallurgy; he was also the chief ballistics engineer for the Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. Stan Rivenbark was one of the top ballistic engineers for Raytheon before he retired in the 70's and also has a degree in metallurgy. I also talked with two local metallurgists here in North TX. I confirmed my findings with each person to see if they agreed or disagreed. Conclusion, they all agreed with each other's assessments.
When Mike worked at Aberdeen proving grounds, the Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. When the primer ignites there is enough pressure to move the bullet forward into the lands. The bullet then stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet starts and stops at least twice and sometimes three times before it leaves the barrel. This is fact.
If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, you've created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So what's the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping two or three times as it leaves the barrel, that's two or three places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore. The use of JB's and Flitz can and will take you down to metal-to-metal contact. For all intents and purposes, JB's and Flitz are not the most ideal products for cleaning your rifle.
According to Mike Rock, and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. Shilen, Hart and Rock Creek will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets and for good reason. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it is when applied to bullets. There is no way possible to coat a bore with moly bullets. The bullet contact surface in the barrel is only so big. But when your round goes off, moly comes off the contact surface of the bullet in the throat area of the rifle and is bonded to the barrel due to the excessive heat and pressure. We're not talking coated or adhered to, we're talking bonded, d**n near permanent. With this, some of the jacket coating comes off the bullet. Follow this up with another round and you've now embedded the copper jacket between layers of bonded moly. This is the beginning of the black moly ring, which ruins countless barrels and is so hard; it can hardly be scraped off with a screwdriver's corner edge. This is what happened to a new Shilen SS select match barrel I had to have replaced with less than 400 rounds through it. I can't talk for Fastex as I don't or none of the folks I talked to knew enough about the product to comment on it. When I talked to Mike about my new barrel and the barrel break-in process, this is what he had to say. He first hand laps each barrel with a lead lap. He then uses two products from Sentry Solutions, a product called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coats until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes or so through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore.
With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break-in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regimen of cleaning and if you have to use JB's or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal. He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, don't be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don't let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.
Well that's the long and skinny from the scientific point of view on the subject. If you're ever in doubt about the real condition of your barrel, take it to someone who has a bore scope and even better if someone has a bore scope that can magnify the view. You may be surprised at what is really going on in your barrel.
I'm sure this will spark a debate here and there, but that's good thing. The more information we have, the better off we'll be.
Elmer
