Barrel Fitting - Consolidation

njohnson

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Barrel Fitting

So I knew I had seen it and after a little searching on YouTube I found the episode of the old show Modern Marvels and the particular episode “The Magnum” It featured a section on the US Army Marksmanship Unit and (at the time) their 1000 yard any rifle/any sight rifles. Included was a visit to the shop where the rifles are built by the team gunsmiths in Fort Benning and low and behold it showed one of the team 1000 yard guns being chambered.....unless I am mistaken it sure looks like a steady rest to me.

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Nor does it means it's necessarily bad. In fact, done correctly, it is every bit as good as chambering through the head stock and dialling both ends. For production work, it is considerably faster and produces excellent results. I know a number of barrel makers, with legions of satisfied customers, who chamber in the steady rest. The truth is that good work is good work regardless of how it is accomplished. I have fitted and chambered hundreds of barrels and still don't claim any one way is always best. I can't even claim my way is necessarily best. Just never grew the arrogance, I guess. As for International Barrels, I'll withhold any opinion until I have seen the product and procedures first hand.
 
It is indeed, just an opinion, with very little evidence to back it up, I suspect. How many rifles have you barrelled using the various methods in order to get a valid comparison? How many chambers have you measured and by what means to verify concentricity? Again, if a set up produces a concentric, co-axial chamber which is on size, it is, in this instance, a good set-up. To say a particular set-up is "just not right", you must have produced or seen produced, results which were demonstrably sub-par using that set-up. You must also be able to demonstrate how another set-up might have prevented or corrected the poor result. Ridicule of any methods without any basis other than opinion doesn't carry a lot of weight.
 
Lol with machining, it either works or it doesn't. The only issue you might have with supporting a barrel with a steady rest would be vibration due to lack of rigidity. If they can successfully cut the chamber without getting chatter, there is nothing wrong with supporting the barrel with a steady rest. A dimensionally accurate part with an acceptable surface finish is a good part, no matter how you got it that way.

I'm a red seal journeyman machinist, I work on long parts every day; have for the last 8 years. On a larger scale, but the principle is the same. Steady rests are a great way to ensure concentricity on both ends of a workpiece, without having to worry about cut forces knocking one end out of alignment. You can float one end of a barrel in a spindle bore, but unless you're supporting it with a chuck on the back side, you can't really guarantee concentricity between both ends.
 
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And even with support at the outboard end, unless the barrel is perfectly straight you may still be dealing with runout at the front of the chamber. If the barrel is not able to pivot freely at the breech end while centering the muzzle, the barrel is simply flexed to center both ends. If the steady track is perfectly concentric to the bore, and the muzzle end is concentric to the axis of the machine, set-up will be as good as if both ends were dialled in in the headstock. In fact, if the tailstock sits a little high (typical on many lathes until the head is well warmed up), there is the potential to cut a chamber which is oversized when chambering through the headstock. This is the reason chambering in a steady can be sound practice. If the tailstock is misaligned in any direction, setting up in the steady aligns the breech end of the barrel with the tailstock center. So, just as a matter of expedience, it becomes a viable method. If one takes the time to verify alignment.
Look, I don't maintain that working in the steady will always produce perfection but I have seen jobs done by other methods which fell short of perfection as well. I generally chamber through the headstock but there are times when the use of the steady rest is reasonable. I personally think that any gunsmith who stands and pounds his chest and declares only his method is the correct one, is usually blowing smoke. I go out of my way to never criticise others in the trade because I have no need to belittle the procedures used by others to try and increase my own stature. Nothing to prove.
 
How can barrel straightness be of no concern?
I have seen unfinished barrels with a short truing cut at the muzzle end. Always assumed it was so that the barrel could be chucked true at the muzzle end, or held in a collet chuck.
Isn't it just about standard practice to use a ring around a barrel when it is set up in a chuck, so that it can be aligned without flexing?
 
No one is unduly concerned about the straightness of the outside of the barrel but barrels are seldom straight inside either (in forty years I think I have see no more than three or four which were close enough to straight to call them that and only one which appeared perfectly straight. As Tiriaq mentioned, one turns a track at the muzzle end which runs true to the bore this is held in the chuck and also serves as an indicator surface. At the breech end the outside is turned true, on centers and this surface then runs in the steady. Some like to thread on centers and run the threads in the steady and this works too.
In a four jaw chuck, a ring of 1/8 to 3/16 brass or soft iron wire works well to allow the barrel to swivel. even then, I like to back off the jaws once I have dialled in the muzzle and reset so as to ensure minimal stress on the barrel.
I'm perfectly willing to give a tutorial on various barrel-fitting and chambering techniques; for production, precision or both but it's necessarily a bit long-winded and most would likely not want to have to struggle through my efforts at technical description.
 
I always get a kick out of guys that think they get a barrels id running concentric under .0005” running piloted rods and tapered indicating rods. Your reamer holder floats..... most of the time they are using no name dial indicators to boot. Many ways to skin a cat and done correctly they all work well. Lots of ways to dial a part in concentric on a 3 jaw chuck. And most guys are running tiwanse lathes as well.
 
No one is unduly concerned about the straightness of the outside of the barrel but barrels are seldom straight inside either (in forty years I think I have see no more than three or four which were close enough to straight to call them that and only one which appeared perfectly straight. As Tiriaq mentioned, one turns a track at the muzzle end which runs true to the bore this is held in the chuck and also serves as an indicator surface. At the breech end the outside is turned true, on centers and this surface then runs in the steady. Some like to thread on centers and run the threads in the steady and this works too.
In a four jaw chuck, a ring of 1/8 to 3/16 brass or soft iron wire works well to allow the barrel to swivel. even then, I like to back off the jaws once I have dialled in the muzzle and reset so as to ensure minimal stress on the barrel.
I'm perfectly willing to give a tutorial on various barrel-fitting and chambering techniques; for production, precision or both but it's necessarily a bit long-winded and most would likely not want to have to struggle through my efforts at technical description.

Should start a new thread, I am betting there are piles of guys on here that would love to read about the methods of your madness. Even with the advent of google and youtube i feel like there is a lot of information about these sorts of things that has/will be lost. Not much I enjoy more than listening to a craftsman share wisdom. There are not too many guys in this country that have been in the game as long as the likes of Leeper, Gun tech, and Ian Robertson.
 
OK guys, here goes. This will be a combination of my methods for various circumstances as well methods I have seen used; some successfully and some not so much. Refinements of various methods and tooling. I may touch on re-chambers and set-backs. Anyone hoping for pictures will be sadly disappointed. I'm barely able to type a message on these things.
The first thing to keep in mind is that a lathe turns around it's lengthwise axis and, as long as the bearings are good, rotation is stable around this axis. When machining a barrel we rally want to get the axis of the bore to coincide with the axis of the lathe. I don't know if that is a good description or not but it's the best I can do. The second thing to keep in mind is that lathes are adjustable. On most the headstock will pivot (over a very limited range) to make it possible to align the axis of the headstock with the bed ways. On all lathes the tailstock adjusts laterally for alignment and to make it possible to turn a taper. The third thing to keep in mind is that very few barrels are straight. I don't mean on the outside, I mean the bore is seldom straight. For this reason, much of what is done, is, to a certain extent, a compromise. We do the best that we can to work with a tube in which the axis is not really what we might think it should be. Common barrel fitting procedures, especially in early years, were, in reality, based on a straight bore. That this really didn't occur very often was left unsaid. Barrel maker would, I suspect, prefer that it remains unsaid!
With the preamble out of the way, I'll start with the typical semi-production gunshop barrel fitting procedure and variations thereof. I'll keep it simple with a flat breech, no extractor cut, no counterbore and a typical v-thread. Let's assume this will be for a Ruger 77. Nothing simpler. The barrel will be a pre-contoured blank.
To start, the action is measured to establish tenon length and the case protrusion measurement which governs headspace. With a depth micrometer, I measure from the face of the receiver to the nose of the closed bolt. The tenon length will be this measurement minus .005". Then, I measure from the receiver face to the face of the closed bolt. This measurement, minus .002", I record as the headspace measurement. The .002 is to compensate for compression of the shoulder when the barrel is tightened on. It may not always actually be .002 but it's usually close. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to cal these measurements .700", for tenon length, and .850 for headspace. With that out of the way. I'll pick up the barrel but first, I'll sign off and have a cup of coffee.
 
When at Gunsmithing College in Trinidad, Colorado in 1966-67 we were taught to chamber using a steady rest... it was the easiest way to do it with limited tooling and small lathes... and it worked fine for me for many years until I got a larger lathe and went to through the head stock set ups... I preferred to thread the tenon on a live center after chambering.

Sam Elliott introduced me to a different way of chambering with the barrel held in a jig, the reamer held in the head stock. I'll describe it later.
 
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I'm barrelling this Ruger to 338 Federal with a 22" #2 contour barrel. To start, I chuck the barrel in the three jaw and cut it to leave the barrel shank I want. Then I use a piloted center reamer to cut a center. The center reamer is supported by the tailstock center unless the bore runs out significantly. If it does, I'll hold the reamer by hand to follow the eccentric bore. This is the first of several possible complications. I may even simply cut the center by hand. Next, I reverse the barrel and cut the muzzle end. If I'm going to finish at 22", I'll cut to 23. Again, the center reamer is used to cut the center. Now, when setting the barrel up to cut the muzzle end, I can either center up the outboard end with a chuck or screws at the tail end of the spindle or I can use a shim at the front of the chuck to allow the barrel to be held with no wobble.
With the centers cut, the next step depends on whether or not the center at the breech end was well cut or slightly eccentric. If the barrel was eccentric and the center is suspect, the barrel is held in the chuck at the muzzle and the breech end is centered on the tailstock. A light truing cut is taken on the shank then the shank is set it the chuck and the center is cut again with the reamer being supported on the tailstock center. After re-cutting, the center cut is inspected. With a 30 degree center it is actually easy to see if the center is eccentric to the bore by very much. One can also use an indicator to check both the bore and the center cut to see that they coincide. All of this takes much less time to do than it takes to tell. Now that the barrel is prepped, I can actually start with the fitting and it is here that I start running into some more options which I'll get to later. For the purpose of this description I'm going to go old school and I'll start by removing the chuck and mounting the face plate and live center. I'll install a dog on the muzzle end and set the barrel between centers with the breech at the tailstock end. I turn the shank to the diameter I want which will be 1.155 or a couple thou less to finish at 1.150, in this case. I turn the tenon to .998 diameter x .700 long. I make a relief cut at the shoulder. This cut is made to the minor diameter of the thread and is radiused so that, at the shoulder, I have a "u" shaped groove. I then thread to 16 tpi so that the receiver just screws on by hand. Because I'm using a dog to drive the barrel, I can remove the barrel to check the fit. I just have to be sure the dog is against the driver when I replace the barrel. Once the threads are a good fit, I put the barrel back in one more time and polish the shank lightly to provide a smooth surface to run in the steady. Now I reverse the barrel and take a light cut for one inch at the muzzle end. This gives me a true surface to grab in the chuck and a surface which I can indicate in the event I choose to use a four jaw chuck. Now the barrel is ready to chamber. For the purposes of this discussion, the chamber will be cut with the barrel running in the steady and I'll describe alternate methods (some good, some maybe not but all used by some highly regarded 'smiths) after.
To set up to chamber the steady is installed and the barrel is installed with the muzzle held in the chuck and the breech end supported on the tail stock center. The steady rest is adjusted to just touch the barrel shank and it's time to start. The chamber is roughed with a common twist drill. The depth of the cut with the drill is determined by the distance from the shoulder on the finish reamer to the front of the pilot or by the distance from the breech end of the barrel to the shoulder of the chamber, whichever is less. If the length is determined by the distance from the shoulder to the front of the pilot, I drill to a depth which allows about 1/8 inch of pilot to engage before the reamer starts cutting. Drilling in this case is done with a 7/16 drill; spindle speed is roughly 240 rpm (or in that neighbourhood). Once drilling is completed, the spindle speed is reduced to around 120 and reaming commences but it doesn't commence right now because I'm going to bed! While this is a description of the common "quick and dirty", old school, chambering method, there are some aspects which will be common to all methods. See you tomorrow when I'll finish and critique.
 
Good Morning.
Before I go any further, I want to talk a little bit about the drilling of the chamber to rough it out. If a drill bit is properly sharpened it will want to follow a hole and will cut to center. If the hole is offset, this will, of course, cause the drill bit to have to bend in order to follow the bore and due to side loading, the drill will cut oversize at the tip as it is fed further into the work. If the bore starts out concentric and running true but is crooked further in, the drill will begin to struggle to cut to the center of the bore and the rear of the hole will become oval. If this condition (a crooked bore) exists to a significant extent it will be difficult, though not impossible, to produce a straight, co-axial chamber. Our barrel though, is nice and straight (ish) so the drilling is straightforward. Don't drill too slowly; push it a bit. A drill bit performs best under a bit of a load so don't baby it. Now, to the reaming.
Holding the reamer.
There are numerous ways of holding and guiding the chambering reamer. There various floating holders on the market. Some like to hold the reamer in a chuck. The most common method is to hold the reamer with a tap wrench or a wrench made specifically for the purpose and support the reamer on the tail stock center. A variation on this is to use a wrench but, rather than support the reamer with a center, use a "pusher" which allows the rear of the reamer to float. There are more variations within this sub-set regarding the design of the pusher and the wrench but I'm not going to worry about this now. Like I said, the most common is probably the use of a tap wrench while supporting the reamer on the center and that is the method I'll use here. Some people like to use a wrench which will clear the toolpost or carriage if they let go of it and the reamer is diven with hand pressure only. Others like to be able to let the wrench rest on the toolpost. I like to rest the wrench on the tool post early on in the process then hold it with my hand toward the end. When the wrench is supported on the toolpost there is undoubtedly some side pressure and, if the reamer grabs, it's likely to break. I hope to avoid this.
For cutting lubricant, I have always used Rigid thread cutting oil. Dark or Nu-clear; your choice (I like the Nu-Clear). I am beginning to believe it doesn't make a whole lot of difference as long as the oil can stand up to the pressure at the cutting edge. I had a friend ( a hobby gunsmith who is also a machinist by trade) tell me motor oil would probably work as well. I tried some 30 weight and it did indeed work just fine. Nonetheless, I like the Rigid product. I have used through-oiling systems-where the oil is pumped through the barrel and past the reamer- and they work well but I'm just as happy with the oil can method so that's what I'll use on this barrel.
To start, I blow out all of the chips which the drilling operation might have left behind by directing the air into the muzzle end of the barrel via a long tube attached to the air nozzle. Before I start reaming, I have a good look to make sure no chips remain. I squirt a glop of oil into the chamber-to-be and anoint the reamer as well. I place the reamer on the tailstock center and push the tailstock ahead while directing the reamer into the hole. When tghe shoulder of the reamer is nearly contacting the mouth of the chamber, I lock the tailstock and begin feeding with the handwheel. At this stage of the game, I'm not too worried about finish or anything so I feed the reamer relatively quickly and I'll probably feed in about a half inch before I stop. When I feel I've gone far enough, I unlock the tailstock lever and drag the tailstock back while -and this is important- making sure to hold the reamer tight against the center. Now, I blow out the barrel again and blow the chips off the reamer. I then runa fingernail along each cutting edge to make sure no chip has welded itself to the reamer. If I feel a bit of metal, I use a piece of triangular stone against the face of the flute to remove the metal then repeat the whole process. Once the neck starts to cut, I quit feeding in so far with each cut and may only cut in .125" or so. Once the shoulder starts to cut, I stop and clean the chamber out well and measure the depth using the depth mike and a "go" gauge. Don't tip the gauge and do double check your measurement. I will have roughed to within about 1/10 inch of the finished length so I now feed in only about .075" and I feed more slowly; especially for the last few thou. Then it's clean and measure again. I should have somewhere around .025" to go (let's pretend I'm dead on and that's exactly what it measures. I check the reamer very carefully and, again, stone each face lightly to make sure the edges are clean. Then squirt in another glop, oul the reamer, and take the final cut. This time, the reamer is fed in quite slowly and, for the last five thou, very, very, slowly with very little pressure. When the tailstock wheel reads .025", I let the reamer dwell for one turn then pull out. Another blow and it's done. I wipe out the chamber and have a look and it is, of course, perfect and free of tool marks. I use a de-burring tool or a case neck deburring tool to break the edge of the chamber and produce a bevel or a radius, depending upon the tool. I then use a drill with a slotted piece of aluminum rod into which I have placed a piece of fine Scotch-brite then, with the lathe running, run the Scotch-Brite in and out three or four times. This gives the chamber a slight polish but really it just cleans it out more than anything. There should be no significant toolmarks which need to be polished out.
Now the barrel is reversed so the muzzle end is at the tailstock and the steady is set to run just behind where the barrel is to be finished. The end is parted off and the barrel is crowned with a crowning tool or with a little boring bar dependent upon which type of crown you want to cut. The finishing touch is to break the edge of the crown using the piloted center reamer. When I do this, I make very certain the bore is clean and the pilot is absolutely clean; any microscopic chip can visibly mark the bore and we don't want that. Run the lathe at 240 (give or take) and just hold the reamer with your fingers while it is supported by the tailstock center. The machine work is now complete.
This is, more or less, the method which was taught to most gunsmiths fifty years ago and which is still use, with some variations, by many shops, including custom barrel makers, today. Each step is dependent upon the proper performance of the step previous. If the initial centers were cut perfectly concentric to the bore, subsequent operations should also be concentric. There are, of course, potential problems which may compromise the job and I'll discuss some of these later. There are reasons for using this technique. These reason include the following:
1. A spindle hole or a lathe which is too small.
2. A headstock which is too long. I once, out of necessity, had to fit and chamber some barrels on a 24 x 120 lathe with a headstock which was better than three feet long. There was no way to support the muzzle end if the barrel was held in the four jaw chuck (well, there was a way but it meant making fixtures which I didn't want to do). Supporting the reamer on the center while trying to gently push it into the chamber with a 150 pound tailstock was a real treat. Sometimes, bigger isn't better.
3. A worn lathe on which the ways are worn down near the headstock.
4. Expedience. This method is fast. If I was doing the job described- a Ruger 77 with a pre-contoured barrel. I could do this job in an hour and a half from the time I picked the rifle out of the rack until I put it back in. This assumes a stainless barrel, of course, with no bluing but would include polishing, bead blasting, and marking. This largely why barrel makers often use this method or some variation of it. The method is viable for precision work with some refinements and with verification of the set-up for each step. I'll go into this further later on and describe some questionable practices which have, nonetheless, been used successfully (sometimes) by accomplished 'smiths. I'll also get around to discussing solid pilot reamers and maybe a little on reamers in general. I've got a busy day ahead of me though so it won't be right away. Later.
 
Thank you for this information.

Often I will see smiths talk about dialing in a barrel to .0005 or etc etc. This has always struck me as needless work, as the thermal expansion inherent to the work basically makes it a moot point. Is it useful to take the time to dial in as close as possible to avoid tolerance stacking? It seems to me that, past a point and especially for hunting rifles, it makes little sense, unless a person enjoys that kind of thing. What do you think?

It seems to me that accuracy has more to do with reloading than with the actual rifle.
 
I'll be getting to this. Meanwhile, I have to point out, if one has a lathe with a spindle bore which is too small to operate through the headstock, all of the work I describe must be done in the steady and between centers. In some cases, a desire for precision will require the use of a cat's head or spider in order to be able to establish a set-up with minimal run out. I can suggest methods for this but for now, I'm not going to get into it. Back in a bit.
 
Not to step on your toes Bill, just added this to explain how I dial in barrels...

I have been 'dialing in' barrels for awhile now as I chamber through the head stock. I use a spider on the muzzle end and a four jaw chuck on the breech. I use round brass rod between the chuck and the barrel so the barrel is not affected by the flsat of the jaws.. I adjust the muzzle end so the bore is running quite true, it isn't as critical as the breech... I adjust the breech as close as I can using a 10 thou dial indicator. I use a 12 inch mandrel with a bushing that fit the bore closely. The mandrel is held in the tailstock chuck by about 1/4 inch. I hang a 2 ounce weight on the mandrel so I am measuring up and down movement. I run the bushing on the mandrel in the barrel to approximately where the throat will be located, the 2 ounce weight about the middle of the mandrel. Bores are not straight and I have found a thousands of an inch difference between the rear of the chamber and the throat area when dialing in. I prefer using the throat area. I set the indicator on the top of the mandrel just outside of the barrel. Slowly rotating the chuck by hand finding the high spot and adjusting the chuck several times until I have that part of the bore indicated as true as I can using the test indicator which measures in the 10 thousands of an inch. Sometime this is a quick procedure, sometimes not... I try to get it within 1 or 2 ten thousands of an inch. Measuring to a ten thou is not easy. The gauge is capable of that accuracy but the procedure has potential flaws in it which require interpretation. When I am satisfied I can't get the bore any closer I will drill the chamber under size and then bore the chamber wall about 10 thou under size at the shoulder, leaving only a few thou for the reamer to cut. The tenon is cut and threaded and the chamber cut all within the same dialed in setup. It is as accurate as I can do it. The goal is to end up with a correct size chamber that is centered on the bore. Some barrels are very straight (I have never seen a barrel any straighter than a Gaillard barrel, some as good, many not as good) and with a straight barrel it is easier to get excellent chambers.

I use the same measuring figures for headspace as Bill does, I will start the reamer pushing on the tail stock center and holding a 'dog' but after the reamer is in 1/2 inch or so I change the center to a open push holder. (below) I have a set up where a dial indicator shows movement of the reamer into the chamber. I can accurately ream to the thousands of an inch in depth.

reamer_holder.jpg
 
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Great read so far. I have chambered several barrels for myself and friends through a steady rest, and they all shoot very well.
If I had a bigger lathe I would probably chamber through the head stock.

However I have have been wondering if anyone has done any testing themselves, or can point me to an article that can actually prove that it makes a difference on paper? I don't doubt that chambering through the headstock has the potential to produce better results. But how much better? Always better? Is it actually worth the effort?
Perhaps the same barrel chambered one way, shot, then cut off and chambered the other way? Done with multiple barrels? Would be an expensive undertaking I am sure.
 
Guntech:

So in effect your method exagerates the error so that it can be adjusted out, using the 2 ounce weight to avoid chasing tolerance. Then the tailstock socket/chuck/pusher allows the reamer to float and find its way along?
 
Guntech:

So in effect your method exagerates the error so that it can be adjusted out, using the 2 ounce weight to avoid chasing tolerance. Then the tailstock socket/chuck/pusher allows the reamer to float and find its way along?

I don't know if it exaggerates the error as much as it allows me to measure movement deep in the barrel where a long tipped test indicator can not reach. The tailstock chuck holds the one end of the indicator solid... the bushed end free to move up and down... the weight does help by 'loading' the bushing.
 
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