Barrels and how to buy them

1899

1899

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When looking to buy a barrel there are many options. Starting from an unprofiled barrel blank to a short chambered, contoured and threaded barrel. If one is not counting pennies (I assume the smithing cost to turn, thread, chamber and cut/crown a barrel is more than the cost to buy one already done) is it worthwhile to hand a reputable smith a blank to work with? I believe that cutting the chamber is critical, right? What about turning the barrel to the right profile? If I am looking for accuracy is it better to get the blank and have a competent smith do all this work? Also, I understand that stainless stell has a lower tensile strength than good chromoly, is this difference even worth noting? I would assume stainless also wears faster.

Also - what are the advantages/disadvantages of an octagon barrel?
 
http://www.bitsofpieces.com
Close to you (and me).

My opinion would be this: To get a blank you'll need to contact a smith anyway... if you order a blank from a third party you'll probably end up paying more for it than a smith who has blanks in stock would charge you. The smith will most likely not "take you" on the charge of the blank since you are also having him do the work for you.


P.S. I believe their blanks are in stock ;)

Good luck
 
To get a rifle to shoot extremely well, the barrel work is most likely the most important part. To get a prethreaded, short chambered barrel is fine for hobbists, or amateur gun builders who may not have the equipment to contour, thread and chamber a barrel. Matchgrade accuracy here is unlikely. To get the most out of the parts, I find it is better to match the barrel threads with EXACTLY what is cut in the action, many times to get the threads centered with the bore of the action it is necessary to recut them, thereby making the prethreaded barrel useless.
Short cut chambers, I feel, are not the answer either, this means a guy has to buy a reamer anyway , then hope he gets it straight in the precut chamber to get the headspace right. Reamers do have slight tolerance variations as well and my thinking is that its best to "finish" the chamber with the use of 1 reamer only, unless specified throat reaming is required. My opinion is that a long chambered barrel makes more sense, as then all you have to do is to keep setting the barrel back till the headspace is correct.
I do not use ANY prethreaded or prechambered barrels, preferring to do my own contouring, threading and chambering.
I assume the smithing cost to turn, thread, chamber and cut/crown a barrel is more than the cost to buy one already done)
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Yes as each barrel is done manually 1 at a time, in most shops, as opposed to running a few thousand of each caliber at a time assembly line style.
I was told last year while at the SHOT Show by a rather arrogant rep of Lothar Walther, that they produce prethreaded, contoured, chambered barrels, that are better than any small gunsmith shop can do and all you have to do is screw the barrel onto the action and voila, done. Instant tack driver. YA Right, I knew I was breathing very same air as a moron.
I believe that cutting the chamber is critical, right?
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Absolutely!! It is pretty easy to screw up and then the fun begins, chatter marks, not centered chambers, rough chambers all easy to do, harder to fix.

Stainless has less tensile? I am not sure on that count, but it is softer or not as brittle, in some respects, than chrome moly I am sure that there must be a metalurgist on the forum who will hop in here. There has been a steady trend over the last several years towards more stainless than chrome moly rebarrel jobs in my shop, and I am seeing far more stainless rifles made by the big makers, in my experience a stainless barrel has 2 benefits, I find they last longer, and they do not need the added cost of being blued for rust protection, to be used.
Many high ranking competetive shooters have switched over to stainless steel barrels, typically they do this for a reason.
If the end result is accuracy , I believe that a good smith will deliver a superior product, than the pre machined barrels can, greater initial cost, certainly, but you usually get what you pay for, and if there are problems , you don't have the hassle of sorting it out, as any reputable shop will ensure satisfaction :mrgreen:
 
Thanks ATR - That was pretty much the info I was looking for.

G37 - I was looking at their barrels. The Heym barrels seem to be a really good deal, and Barry is a nice guy to deal with.
 
Don't know that there is any harm in buying a contoured blank from a quality manufacturer. I suspect that the mfr. can do a better job of countouring with a dedicated lathe than most smiths can do with a conventional machinist's lathe, and most will do custom countours if necessary. The commercial prethreaded, chambered barrels, as advertised in Brownells are fine for replacement barrels on a hunting rifle; if you are going to go to the time, trouble and expense of a custom project, might as well go premium all the way with the barrel. I have used shortchambered barrels, and while I have not had a test case show signs of two reamers, there is no reason to expect that two different reamers will cut to the exact same contour. Finish threaded, chambered barrels that have had good reports are the PacNor barrels for Savage rifles. The Savage system is one that lends itself to installation of a finished barrel. It is important to have the work done by a smith who knows how to fit a barrel to a high standard; otherwise you can end up with an expensive rig that isn't going to shoot any better than a stock factory rifle. Another reason for the popularity of stainless for precision barrels is that there is a thought that it is easier to create a premium bore in a stainless blank because of the machining properties of the alloy used.
 
416r stainless steel does have a much lower yield strength than any of the crome moly series (4130,4140, 4340,...) and it and most stainless steels lose strength at cold temps, -25 and below. Ever wonder why militarys dont use ss firearms.

That being said it is fine for sporting uses and shooters, 416r machines very well.
 
Don't know that there is any harm in buying a contoured blank from a quality manufacturer. I suspect that the mfr. can do a better job of countouring with a dedicated lathe than most smiths can do with a conventional machinist's lathe, and most will do custom countours if necessary.
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I agree here 100% Very few of us have a dedicated lathe for contouring, I have set 1 up for this purpose, but most shops I have ever worked in do not.

I have not had a test case show signs of two reamers,
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Just to clarify here, I was not suggesting that a prethreaded/chambered barrel would come this way. What I was meaning was that the supplier had 1 reamer, and then the consumer has another 1 to finish the chamber with, potentially creating an odd chamber as there can be different tolerances from reamer to reamer.
Most reamer and gage makers suggest not using different brands of go/nogo gages of the same cartridge size from different makers for this reason a s well.
The Savage system is one that lends itself to installation of a finished barrel.
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Yes this is probably the best action for which prethreaded works in, it is a brilliant concept.
 
was told last year while at the SHOT Show by a rather arrogant rep of Lothar Walther, that they produce prethreaded, contoured, chambered barrels, that are better than any small gunsmith shop can do and all you have to do is screw the barrel onto the action and voila, done. Instant tack driver. YA Right, I knew I was breathing very same air as a moron.
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Walther Lothar barrels are hammer forged were as most others are machined from blank stock .Hammer forged barrels are by far a superior than turned barrels less chance of machining errors,better overall finnish and quailty .But like anything else if the action is resonably true :roll: :lol: as are most rifles then it stands to reason what he said makes sense
 
We are talking about the same thing - the mfr partially cuts the chamber with one reamer (not a chamber cut with a rougher, the chamber is almost finished to depth with a finisher), then the smith finishes the chamber with a different reamer. I have seen transition lines on fired cases when a barrel has been set back and the chamber recut, which in a way is a similar situation. No idea what sort of reamer mfrs use to short chamber barrels. Perhaps a minimum spec. reamer is used. You can feel your reamer pick up the short chamber, and the cutting can occur over a fairly wide area of the chamber. As you mention, a long chambered barrel is a better way to go. Only one reamer is used, and if the fitter knows how to use a lathe, and can measure and gauge accurately, a decent installation is possible. There can be enough variation in receiver ring dimensions that fitting the barrel to a specific receiver is the best way to go. It is remarkable how much variation there can be. An <any size fits all> preturned shank is going to fit only a percentage of receivers really well, and some rather poorly. I much prefer to achieve a smooth, no wobble, no force, fit as the barrel screws in to the shoulder. If the receiver is properly prepped, the torque load can be applied cleanly and predictably.
 
tiriag Yes thats it exactly.
Savage I agree Lothar Walther makes a great barrel, but to tell me that their production run screw in and shoot it barrels are better than , properly fitting the barrel threads to what is ACTUALLY in the action , not what is supposed to be in the action, makes absolutely NO sense. His claim is that no matter how loose the threads were or how far out of true the action is makes NO difference, just screw in their prethreaded, prechambered barrel and add ammo, instant tack driver. To which I told him he was a moron if he believed that. Maybe their barrels are better than most factory offerings, but to compare a hand fit barrel to a production line made 1 that can not possibly fit all actions the same is ludicrous. :mrgreen:
 
1899 said:
When looking to buy a barrel there are many options. Starting from an unprofiled barrel blank to a short chambered, contoured and threaded barrel. If you have the equipment required for the installation the cheapest method is to buy a long chambered barrel and fit it up, it may not be the most accurate set-up because as already mentioned there are differences in thread diameters and concentricity may be an issue in a super accurate rifle but accuracy will for the most part be as good as the barrel installed.
If one is not counting pennies (I assume the smithing cost to turn, thread, chamber and cut/crown a barrel is more than the cost to buy one already done) is it worthwhile to hand a reputable smith a blank to work with?
You should not hand any smith a unturned blank if he does not have the means to stress relieve the barrel after contouring. The minor cuts at the strait shank are not a problem but contouring becomes a problem if any amount of turning is performed after the shank with stresses that will inevitably be introduced, especially with button rifled barrels, the cut rifled barrels are less prone to stress while contouring.
I believe that cutting the chamber is critical, right? What about turning the barrel to the right profile? If I am looking for accuracy is it better to get the blank and have a competent smith do all this work?
Again the best route is to get a good gunsmith and have him order a precontoured barrel.
Also, I understand that stainless stell has a lower tensile strength than good chromoly, is this difference even worth noting? I would assume stainless also wears faster.
The biggest advantage of stainless is its corrosion resistance.
Also - what are the advantages/disadvantages of an octagon barrel? Cosmetics, and ease of installing close fitting sight ramps due to the flat surfaces. The one disadvantage is they tend to be less accurate due to concentricity issues. It is extremely difficult to machine 8 flats at the same distance from the center of the bore, if it is even possible.
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Good Luck
bigbull
 
You should not hand any smith a unturned blank if he does not have the means to stress relieve the barrel after contouring. The minor cuts at the strait shank are not a problem but contouring becomes a problem if any amount of turning is performed after the shank with stresses that will inevitably be introduced, especially with button rifled barrels, the cut rifled barrels are less prone to stress while contouring.
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Definitely true, sorry I forgot to mention this, :oops: I just take it for granted that everyone has access to a cryo tank. :mrgreen:
 
For just about everyone, buying a preturned blank is best. The factories have the machines and will/should stress relieve. Plus the cost savings are substantial.

I have purchased a prechambered/threaded barrel before. Performance was 1/2MOA so not bad but the chamber was no where near lined up with the action. The brass came out crooked. Visible if the brass was put on the table. FL sizing solved the problem but still, disconcerting.

I am about to try some aftermarket ready to go barrels for the Savage. IF the chambering is done properly, these barrels will shoot to the same level as a smith installed. However, there is always room for mass produced errors (unfortunately, same goes for gunsmiths).

To replace a hunting or varminting rifle, sure why not get a almost ready to go barrel. Pin point accuracy is not always needed and the cost savings are huge.

If you want a tack driver or comp rifle, then go with a top quality BR barrel, precontoured at the factory, then precision installed by a smith who understands the process.

As to the Lothar story, that is pretty scary that the company would put such an idiot representing their products. But then, snake oil salesmen is a very AMERICAN thing. :shock:

Hammer forging stress free????? That has got to be the worse way to make a barrel stress free. I just think that beating a piece of metal into submission can't be good for its grain structure. Yes, they can make decent barrels but BR quality???? Doubt it.

The SS thing in BR circles probably has its roots in the ease of machining. Simply easier to cut a more consistent barrel so the odds of getting a shooter is slightly better then a CM barrel. I have used both and they can both be superb.

CM barrels last longer then SS but in comp applications, accuracy rules over everything. I would recommend a CM barrel for someone building a LR loudenboomer. You will get a bit longer throat life.

Jerry
 
CM barrels last longer then SS but in comp applications, accuracy rules over everything. I would recommend a CM barrel for someone building a LR loudenboomer. You will get a bit longer throat life.
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Jerry I have experienced the exact opposite here. I have found since switching to stainless barrels my 300s last about 600 to 1000 rounds longer of accurate life.
I really don't have an answer for this, a metalurgist pal suggested the nickle or chrome content of stainless may be the reason as it is harder to erode, but if that was the case Chrome moly should last longer.
I do support your thoughts that either can produce superb accuracy.
Not sure there is a right answer to the life span, but personal preference of both the smith and the client certainly play a heavy role. :mrgreen:
 
No, not the same, diferent alloy. There are a few types of steel used for barrels. Often .22, and some ml barrels are made from 12L15 or similar free machining steels. Adequate for the purpose, excellent machining characteristics, tendency to brittleness. 1137 or silmilar alloy is used for ml, lower pressure rifle barrels. 4140 CrMo is widely used for cf barrels. 416R stainless is widely used. It is critical that the steel be of rifle barrel quality, because flaws, inconsistancies can lead to failures. There are also some exotic steels occasionally used, but machining properties are important for a premium bore. Stress relief is very important if warping is to be minimized. The stress situation in button and forged barrels is very different than in cut rifled barrels. Years ago I contoured a quantity of tapered octagon to round 1137 ml barrels. Of the dozens in the batch, one warped dramatically; salvaged it by trimming from 36" to 24", and recontouring.
 
1899 said:
When looking to buy a barrel there are many options. Starting from an unprofiled barrel blank to a short chambered, contoured and threaded barrel. If one is not counting pennies (I assume the smithing cost to turn, thread, chamber and cut/crown a barrel is more than the cost to buy one already done) is it worthwhile to hand a reputable smith a blank to work with? I believe that cutting the chamber is critical, right? What about turning the barrel to the right profile? If I am looking for accuracy is it better to get the blank and have a competent smith do all this work? Also, I understand that stainless stell has a lower tensile strength than good chromoly, is this difference even worth noting? I would assume stainless also wears faster.

Also - what are the advantages/disadvantages of an octagon barrel?
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You want the barrel maker to supply the barrel contour you desire. Modifications to the barrel afterward should be minimal - I.E. turning the final chamber area diameter.

Fluting should ideally be done prior to lapping etc. Best to have the barrel maker do this and only if absolutely necessary.\

Cylindrical shapes are more uniform and exposed to less dimensional differences. Create odd shapes and you are exposed to machining inaccuracies which can negatively impact on precision shooting.

To find the most accurate and precision barrel see what benchrest shooters are using - this is a good baseline.

Chambering, minor breech area contouing, crowing are all acceptable modifications done by any accuracy smith.

Stainless steel is also accepted to last longer ghen the cro-mo counterpart. Better erosion characteristics.
 
His claim is that no matter how loose the threads were or how far out of true the action is makes NO difference, just screw in their prethreaded, prechambered barrel and add ammo, instant tack driver
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We know that L-W makes good barrels, but the claim above? One item that Rick or Jerry have forgotten is HEADSPACE.
I have purchased a prechambered/threaded barrel before. Performance was 1/2MOA so not bad but the chamber was no where near lined up with the action. The brass came out crooked. Visible if the brass was put on the table. FL sizing solved the problem but still, disconcerting.
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Nothing like shortening the life of the brass.

RePete.
 
ATR, that is very interesting. I wonder if within the alloy family there is enough content variation that some 416R is 'better' then another?

I am in a batch of SS barrel so will see how they stand up to the cannons.

I also wonder how much that 1 or 2 grains of extra powder effects the throat life. I have two 7RM. One shoots a load 1.5gr higher then the other. Everything else is the same. Of course, there is a sig. difference in muzzle velocity.

Is that what will keep the 'slower' barrel lasting longer? Is that difference in heat, pressure, and flame time enough to make the difference of several hundred rds?

Ah, questions to ponder over a nice glass of .....

Jerry
 
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