Barrie provincials - match comments + some results now too
- Thread starter omen
- Start date
I don't see a problem with patching... I would find it borning, otherwise. Plus let's be honest, patching gives you a perfect excuse to mingle with the targets, to check out angles, distances, etc.
I didn't really like the "no patching, tent rule" arrangement last year in NB - ok, fine, no one got any extra looks at the stages, but it was boring to wait around and do nothing all that time...
Re paying extra $20-$30 for no patching - see, now you are imposing that onto people who don't mind patching, and who would not want to pay that. You know what we should do, on the form you should indicate if you want to pay or patch, and then the day's salary for the patchers would get divided among the people who were willing to pay, and given to those who patched. Of couse that might mean that you paid for that person/people all by yourself, doubling your match fee (or more). Does that sound ok? Probably not... So why is it ok for people who don't have the money and are happy to patch to be forced to pay?
I didn't really like the "no patching, tent rule" arrangement last year in NB - ok, fine, no one got any extra looks at the stages, but it was boring to wait around and do nothing all that time...
Re paying extra $20-$30 for no patching - see, now you are imposing that onto people who don't mind patching, and who would not want to pay that. You know what we should do, on the form you should indicate if you want to pay or patch, and then the day's salary for the patchers would get divided among the people who were willing to pay, and given to those who patched. Of couse that might mean that you paid for that person/people all by yourself, doubling your match fee (or more). Does that sound ok? Probably not... So why is it ok for people who don't have the money and are happy to patch to be forced to pay?
Omen,
To clarify the patching debate.
That would be for the Provincials $16.30 as I broke down earlier.
Lets take the recent Guelph event, 2 ranges 2 people per range @ 10.00 per/ hr. for 8 hrs $320.00 + workers comp. 12.80 = 332.80 divided by 69 shooters = $4.82 per shooter.
I would give an extra $5.00.
To clarify the patching debate.
That would be for the Provincials $16.30 as I broke down earlier.
Lets take the recent Guelph event, 2 ranges 2 people per range @ 10.00 per/ hr. for 8 hrs $320.00 + workers comp. 12.80 = 332.80 divided by 69 shooters = $4.82 per shooter.
I would give an extra $5.00.
...guys...it's a volunteer organization...we need volunteers
I don't like the idea of paying people to work matches...
Why stop at patchers?
Why not pay:
Stage deisgners
Stage builders
MD
RO's
Stats
yada yada
What make the patchers so important that only they get paid??
It would be a can of worms I wouldn't want to open...
My .02
I don't like the idea of paying people to work matches...
Why stop at patchers?
Why not pay:
Stage deisgners
Stage builders
MD
RO's
Stats
yada yada
What make the patchers so important that only they get paid??
It would be a can of worms I wouldn't want to open...
My .02
omen said:
Think of the time you would have to check out the targets while they were being patched & scored?
omen said:
This is not a cheap sport. We're talking less than 1% of most shooting budgets.
Quigley said:
The original idea was to speed up the day. How can we get done sooner or put more shooters thru (which would bring even higher revenues and bring down the cost per shooter) The only thing that holds up the next shooter is patching and scoring. The quicker that process is completed the sooner you shoot.
Quigley said:
Me neither, but I wouldn't mind seeing higher match fees to donate to a volunteer organization that needs to raise a few bucks or wants to raise awareness for something. Say "Hooters Girls for Global Awareness" or some other charitable group.
Quigley said:
Roger that Quigley... Imagine... if you have paid patchers etc... then could you imagine the "Can-O-Worms" .... Could you picture some of these guys bringing their:
1. Ammo Caddy; 2. Gun bearer; 3. CSI trained Forensic Photographer; 4. lawyer; and of course 5. a Handyman with a tape measure
This sport only survives because of the volunteers... I arrived at the range at noon on Saturday after a 5 hour drive... I was asked if I could help on a stage setting up the 4 poppers in the hole... I gladly did it the rest of the day and into the evening. I felt good that I could help these great people out in some way.
I personaly would like a policy like : "No Patch or Help = unsportsman like conduct" = the big DQ! No patch, no play
I still really enjoyed myself, It was a great match, and the people who organized it did a tremendous job... thanks to all who pictched in to pull this off.
If you aren't shooting then why not patch, pick up brass, reset targets, etc. That's what we do in Alberta and with everyone pitching in things move along nicely. Like someone else said, this is a volunteer organization, the speed at which a match runs is largely a result of the people who shoot and see or don't see a reason to help out.
I totally agree.
Quigley said:
Ahh, because, you see, the patchers would do the job which the SHOOTERS are being asked to do.. everything else you mentioned are things which, from the SHOOTERS' point of view is done behind the scenes, it all magically appears, without any effort or time required from them. So it's ok that 'others' spend their time working towards the match, it's only when the SHOOTERS are asked to help out that we start coming up with ways to let them get out of it by spending a few bucks. It's the magical "let SOMEONE ELSE" do it; yeah, what if everyone adopted that attitude? Why not extend it? Let some OTHER club host the match...? How many matches would we get then, eh?
Ohh, and you know, it's very easy for an adult employed full-time to ##### about how $20 or $30 isn't a big deal; try talking to a university student who's working for minimum wage to save up enough to pay tuition and residence costs for next year. Those people are very happy to patch between shooting, and pay less. And yes, those are the very people I bring to matches.
You are free to hire someone to follow you around, carry your bags, and patch targets for you - I don't think anyone would object to that. As long as your contribution is there, no one would care if it was you or your flunky doing it.
I find that most people have no problem giving a hand, and it's only a small group which likes to complain about having to do anything. Grow up.
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
hungrybeagle said:
Hey you are describing my next match. The EESA Drama Daze, we are raising money for the local high school drama department. The plan is to have the kids do some of the patching if all goes well.
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- Location
- On the firing line
I worked with Tim, Peter. Mark and Pam on Saturday at the provincials and I must comment that all of saturdays squads helped patch and reset the poppers and actuators and at the end of our fifth squad we sat down and had to wait 40 minutes for the last squad to show up. We had the most difficult stages to reset ( 1 and 2 ) and look after but with help from all we managed to finish ahead or before our allotted time. Thanks to all the dedicated shooters who shot on Saturday, kudos to all you made our job much easier.
Phil
Phil
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What a great idea pay the match staff and there comp. We can not forget there CPP , EI with that we can not forget the clubs share of the CPP and EI.
Here is another Idea to speed up the match. Take all the people that can not shoot the stages fast enough and not allow them to shoot the match that will speed things up.
Be fore you guy's start ripping me a new one I was being sarcastic. I would never think or say some thing like that. I beleave that evey body should have the same right to shoot and have as much fun as every body else. Think about what you are asking when you say people should be paid to patch. How much do you pay RO's , CRO's score keepers stats , the people that go around and make sure you water , fix the props go get lunber stapels. By the time you pay all those people that match fee would be around $700. per person.
Then again with match fees at $700.00 not that many people would shoot the matches and they would go alot faster. maybe you guy are on to some thing
Here is another Idea to speed up the match. Take all the people that can not shoot the stages fast enough and not allow them to shoot the match that will speed things up.
Be fore you guy's start ripping me a new one I was being sarcastic. I would never think or say some thing like that. I beleave that evey body should have the same right to shoot and have as much fun as every body else. Think about what you are asking when you say people should be paid to patch. How much do you pay RO's , CRO's score keepers stats , the people that go around and make sure you water , fix the props go get lunber stapels. By the time you pay all those people that match fee would be around $700. per person.
Then again with match fees at $700.00 not that many people would shoot the matches and they would go alot faster. maybe you guy are on to some thing
Colt1911 said:
When a local RO spends a whole weekend, plus a night in the week before to do a black badge course for PEANUTS, or when he shows up at our range to help the squad with drills (and gives up his free time). or when range officers spend DAYS of effort to get a large match on. (to get paid what??? ) our hours responding to emails to help a new squad...
I don't call that treating us like "customers".. thats more like treating us like friends and fellow shooters..
I hav eto object to the "we are customers" comments.. if you want to be treated like a customer then you should go to Lebarons and get treated like $h1t!
there is more to this sport then money.
omen said:
Omen, I dont get this one, you just told me that I should have taken a day off to shoot. I shouldn't just show up when its convienient, then you plead poverty as a university student. Isn't missing a days work far more money than the 5 or 10 bucks for a patcher?
I am a University student and am working through the summer to pay for my stuff along with my sport. I only have 4 months of the year to work, I can't exactly take a day off, thats lost money. Now I'm not pleading poverty, I'm actually doing quite well, but you can see my point.
I would gladly pay someone to patch because it would speed things up a hundred times over. Especially if it ment I didn't have to miss a days work. At least were starting to address the problem that no one seems to think exists.
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stormbringer said:
Exactly. My point was that paying patchers doesn't have to be about people paid to do a specific job, but giving a deserving group an honorarium for volunteer work as opposed to giving them money for nothing.
For what it's worth, as a competitor, I have no problem patching and taping. I understand that one of the problems with this system is the individual who consistently sits on his ass and never gets up to help patch and tape for his squad.
The other problem with this system is the number of people in the squad who will instead pick brass instead of taping and patching.
Then there are the people who use patching and setting steel as an excuse to go onto the stage and do a "mini walkthrough" of the stage. RO's need to be more attentive to this kind of behaviour, and apply the warnings appropriately in the rule book.
Sorry, I'm ranting.
As a final note, the system of "work half a day, shoot half a day" in BC has been plaged with problems lately. People who shoot in the morning, and then bugger off at lunch time or sneak away halfway through the afternoon has been causing concern amongst Match Directors. Most match copies now include the disclaimer "Working is a condition of match entry. Shooters who do not work the match as an RO or patcher/steel setter may have their scores removed at the discretion of the Range Master/Match Director". Sadly, it's always the same half dozen people who are guilty of this, but when other shooters see them get away with it, it sends the message that "shooting and scooting" is okay, and others start to follow suit.
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MOBILE 1 said:
Just Workers Comp. most cases.
MOBILE 1 said:
The “slow shooters” you need. 900 IPSC members in Ontario (how many people are in Ontario?) Our sport is a very politically incorrect sport, we need lots of friends.
ckc123 said:
I’m sure you do it because you enjoy the sport. I also enjoy the sport, and that is why I’m making suggestions as someone on the outside looking in. When you are on the inside working, you have no time for research, sales and marketing, but without these, you will eventually have no need for working.
ckc123 said:
I have met many folks I consider friends as well.
ckc123 said:
We’re still customers.
ckc123 said:
No it’s not about money, it’s about having fun. I thought the idea Storm has re. his upcoming match is excellent. It will accomplish not only getting targets patched but will introduce many new people to the shooting sports.
Colt1911 said:
Actually...no you're not
You are part of a volunteer organization...and you (all of you) are expected to contribute...
Memebership is not a right...it's a privelage...and everyone gets treated the same.
I'm all for suggestions to improve the process...but this "customer" attitude has to go...
