BCL 102 catastrophic failure

Grapeshot said:
IMO they should be recalling those swiss cheese barrel nuts. They are the root cause of these failures, and failures will keep happening as long as the flawed parts stay in curculation.

The possibility of catastrophically damaging your rifle (and yourself) from normal use or by doing a routine operation like a muzzle device swap is unacceptable.
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The top barrel nut with holes it it is not whats causing the issue at all, its the part under it, the pin is going into the steel, its too soft metal.
There is only 1 hole in that part and that is to fit the pin that holds it in place. That pin doesn't even touch the barrel nut with the holes around it. Look at the photos I posed on page 35.
 
kcampbell said:
The top barrel nut with holes it it is not whats causing the issue at all, its the part under it, the pin is going into the steel, its too soft metal.
There is only 1 hole in that part and that is to fit the pin that holds it in place. That pin doesn't even touch the barrel nut with the holes around it. Look at the photos I posed on page 35.
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What you dont seem to understand is how the hole in the barrel nut allows the aluminum to deflect and deform.
 
kcampbell said:
The top barrel nut with holes it it is not whats causing the issue at all, its the part under it, the pin is going into the steel, its too soft metal.
There is only 1 hole in that part and that is to fit the pin that holds it in place. That pin doesn't even touch the barrel nut with the holes around it. Look at the photos I posed on page 35.
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FarmerDanz said:
What you dont seem to understand is how the hole in the barrel nut allows the aluminum to deflect and deform.
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The steel barrel indexing pin is pressed into the steel barrel extension. It engages the notch in the threaded extension of the upper receiver, to insure that the barrel is properly located.
If the barrel is twisted hard enough, the barrel turns, and the indexing pin is driven into and under the threaded receiver extension. The large holes in the collar leave the upper receiver threads unsupported, and allow the receiver to be distorted. If the holes were not there, the threaded portion could not be deformed as it is in the photos posted in this thread. A conventional barrel nut supports the threaded receiver. If you look carefully at the photo of the deformed receiver, you can see that there is a crack forming in the root of the thread.
The large holes in the collar aren't the cause of the problem, but they contribute to it.
In a conventional AR type rifle, the barrel nut is a cap which threads onto the receiver, and holds the barrel in place. It covers the threads completely. In the BCL102 design, there is a two piece assembly which retains the barrel, and provides a base for the tubular handguard. The piece with the holes is an internally threaded sleeve which screws onto the receiver; the barrel is retained by a collar which screws into this sleeve.

As far as the possibility of the problem developing with use goes - if the inner barrel retaining sleeve were loose, or became loose, the only thing keeping the barrel from rotating would be the indexing pin in its little aluminum notch. I do not know how much torque is generated when a rifle is fired; there must be some, as the bullets slam into the rifling.

Incidentally, this is Page 2. You can alter your settings so that you do not have dozens of pages to scroll through.
 
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kcampbell said:
The top barrel nut with holes it it is not whats causing the issue at all, its the part under it, the pin is going into the steel, its too soft metal.
There is only 1 hole in that part and that is to fit the pin that holds it in place. That pin doesn't even touch the barrel nut with the holes around it. Look at the photos I posed on page 35.
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Please stop posting as clearly you have no clue how to assemble a AR. The barrel index pin is already pressed into the barrel extension. It is not put in post install of a barrel on a upper.
 
Hitzy said:
Why would it not be the barrel nut install that caused this? Both flash hider and nut torque on the same way...righty tighty, which would cause the pin to crush right side.
Once the nut is hand tight, it's going to cause friction on the barrel extension when torqued to spec. I think that last bit of torque by a monkey is what caused the pin to crush the receiver threads.
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I can't imagine the small amount of torque from friction on the nut flange is going to cause damage to anything.

You are correct that the installation direction on the nut is to the right, but if the barrel is supported rather than the receiver, then the receiver also rotates to the right, until it stops when the index pin hits the right side of the slot with the full force of the applied torque.
 
BattleRife said:
I can't imagine the small amount of torque from friction on the nut flange is going to cause damage to anything.

You are correct that the installation direction on the nut is to the right, but if the barrel is supported rather than the receiver, then the receiver also rotates to the right, until it stops when the index pin hits the right side of the slot with the full force of the applied torque.
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We are talking about NEA/BCL here...they probably don't even own a barrel vice lol.
 
Sinasta said:
Please stop posting as clearly you have no clue how to assemble a AR. The barrel index pin is already pressed into the barrel extension. It is not put in post install of a barrel on a upper.
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I think you misunderstood me I am not saying the hole is there to put the pin in after, I know full well how to assemble an AR10/AR15.
I am saying the ONLY 1 hole in the threads the nut turns into (not the hole in the nut) is there for the pin to fit into to make sure it is aligned properly and to help stop it from turning (I am not saying it is there to insert indexing pin into and I wasn't even talking about the holes in the barrel nut its-self).

The only reason I can see for them putting all those holes in the barrel nut is to try and shave off weight on a heavy rifle.

There is much more than 1 hole in the nut its-self (not talking about the threaded holes that are required for mounting the hand guard).

What I am saying is if the metal is soft enough you could have a barrel nut made out of titanium and the part that failed would still deform and move out of place.
I am sure the holes do not help but simply replacing that barrel nut with one without holes probably in my opinion would not be a safe enough way to fix the problem, IE I wouldn't trust it.

The metal for that entire section of the rifle should not have been soft enough to deform simply from putting a muzzle device on and should be replaced with a stronger/higher quality metal.

What I am saying in short is that simply replacing the barrel nut is not a safe enough way to fix it in my opinion, if the metal underneath was strong enough it shouldn't deform regardless of the barrel nut holes or not / there is a much larger problem than holes in the barrel nut.

Edit: You should also get off your high horse and take the stick out of your arse, you can correct people without being a dickhead about it. It is people like you that make people afraid to learn about guns and talk on forums like this. It's not the 90's anymore we are trying to get more people involved in the community not intimidate people by being elitist jerks. Plenty of other people on this forum misunderstood what I was saying as well and corrected me without being a #### about it.
 
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kcampbell said:
I think you misunderstood me I am not saying the hole is there to put the pin in after, I know full well how to assemble an AR10/AR15.
I am saying the ONLY 1 hole in the threads the nut turns into (not the hole in the nut) is there for the pin to fit into to stop it from turning (I am not saying it is there to insert indexing pin into and I wasn't even talking about the holes in the barrel nut its-self).

The only reason I can see for them putting all those holes in the barrel nut is to try and shave off weight on a heavy rifle.

There is much more than 1 hole in the nut its-self (not talking about the threaded holes that are required for mounting the hand guard).

What I am saying is if the metal is soft enough you could have a barrel nut made out of titanium and the part that failed would still deform and move out of place.
I am sure the holes do not help but simply replacing that barrel nut with one without holes probably in my opinion would not be a safe enough way to fix the problem, IE I wouldn't trust it.

The metal for that entire section of the rifle should not have been soft enough to deform simply from putting a muzzle device on and should be replaced with a stronger/higher quality metal.

What I am saying in short is that simply replacing the barrel nut is not a safe enough way to fix it in my opinion, if the metal underneath was strong enough it shouldn't deform regardless of the barrel nut holes or not / there is a much larger problem than holes in the barrel nut.

Edit: You should also get off your high horse and take the stick out of your arse, you can correct people without being a dickhead about it. It is people like you that make people afraid to learn about guns and talk on forums like this. It's not the 90's anymore we are trying to get more people involved in the community not intimidate people by being elitist jerks. Plenty of other people on this forum misunderstood what I was saying as well and corrected me without being a #### about it.
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You actually do not seem to understand what is happening. I am not even going to try to explain it as it is clearly stated above.

I don't care if you think i am a dickhead too.
 
mb9 said:
You actually do not seem to understand what is happening. I am not even going to try to explain it as it is clearly stated above.

I don't care if you think i am a dickhead too.
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I don' think you are a dickhead because again I didn't clearly explain what I was saying and you are not telling me to stop talking, I don't care that the other guy tried to correct me, what made me think he is a #### is telling someone to stop talking when they are in a place meant for learning.

Maybe this will be more clear? I do understand that barrel nut helps support the part that is failing, but what I am saying is the metal is too soft and it shouldn't even need that much support just to stop it from failing from only putting a muzzle device on. I am saying the main problem is the soft metal, not just that it is not supported. I think the metal is so soft that even if it had the extra support from a barrel nut with no holes in it, it would still deform.

Now do you understand what I am saying?

I actually took a file to mine just to see how soft it is and it is horrible.
 
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kcampbell said:
I don' think you are a dickhead because again I didn't clearly explain what I was saying and you are not telling me to stop talking, I don't care that the other guy tried to correct me, what made me think he is a #### is telling someone to stop talking when they are in a place meant for learning.

Maybe this will be more clear? I do understand that barrel nut helps support the part that is failing, but what I am saying is the metal is too soft and it shouldn't even need that much support just to stop it from failing from only putting a muzzle device on. I am saying the main problem is the soft metal, not just that it is not supported. I think the metal is so soft that even if it had the extra support from a barrel nut with no holes in it, it would still deform.

Now do you understand what I am saying?
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The reason you need to stop talking is because you're stating complete BS and even after you tried to explain, you clearly have no clue.

There's a saying about keeping silent and thought a fool or open your mouth and remove all doubt.
 
kcampbell said:
I don' think you are a dickhead because again I didn't clearly explain what I was saying and you are not telling me to stop talking, I don't care that the other guy tried to correct me, what made me think he is a #### is telling someone to stop talking when they are in a place meant for learning.

Maybe this will be more clear? I do understand that barrel nut helps support the part that is failing, but what I am saying is the metal is too soft and it shouldn't even need that much support just to stop it from failing from only putting a muzzle device on. I am saying the main problem is the soft metal, not just that it is not supported. I think the metal is so soft that even if it had the extra support from a barrel nut with no holes in it, it would still deform.

Now do you understand what I am saying?

I actually took a file to mine just to see how soft it is and it is horrible.
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Yes i understand what you are saying but AR's are made of soft metal....Aluminum...this will always happen if you tighten a muzzle device without correctly holding the barrel, such that the torque doesnt transfer to the Aluminum receiver...like the above pics show and was clearly stated by much smarter people than me.

And ya, you need to stop talking. Lol.
 
mb9 said:
Yes i understand what you are saying but AR's are made of soft metal....Aluminum...this will always happen if you tighten a muzzle device without correctly holding the barrel, such that the torque doesnt transfer to the Aluminum receiver...like the above pics show and was clearly stated by much smarter people than me.

And ya, you need to stop talking. Lol.
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I dunno man, many thousands of AR's were built with nothing more then upper receiver blocks... reaction rods and barrel vices were not common tools to the home builders.
 
Hitzy said:
I dunno man, many thousands of AR's were built with nothing more then upper receiver blocks... reaction rods and barrel vices were not common tools to the home builders.
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A vice isn't common?

I know it CAN be done, but it CAN also be done incorrectly very easily. Hence the making of reaction rods etc.

I am just here to learn. This is an interesting case to learn from.

Maybe kcampbell is right and the BCL's receiver is too soft... Anything is possible from THAT company. I know as an NEA AR owner.
 
Hitzy said:
I dunno man, many thousands of AR's were built with nothing more then upper receiver blocks... reaction rods and barrel vices were not common tools to the home builders.
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The best way to install a barrel is with a receiver fixture, actually. Not all receiver fixtures are created equal, but the basic principle of holding the upper to torque a barrel nut is the best mechanical approach.


The TDP spec to install a barrel is to use a barrel vice, not for mechanical purposes but for practical purposes, it's faster to use a barrel vice to assemble a lot of rifles in short order. Even tho a barrel vice is more suited to muzzle device installation than barrel installation.
 
mb9 said:
A vice isn't common?

I know it CAN be done, but it CAN also be done incorrectly very easily. Hence the making of reaction rods etc.

I am just here to learn. This is an interesting case to learn from.

Maybe kcampbell is right and the BCL's receiver is too soft... Anything is possible from THAT company. I know as an NEA AR owner.
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If you look at the photos I posted a few pages back/forward depending on your settings you can see a good chunk of my feed ramp is already missing/worn out and I have only fired about 1000 rounds if that. That is only from brass rubbing (have only fired brass cased ammo through it) the metal is seriously soft. I have fired over 10,000 rounds from a norinco ar15 and it doesn't have as much wear, that is why my rifle is covered in oil and grease in the photos. I noticed it was wearing out faster than any other AR I own so I started to baby it.

If I wasn't using mine for my deer rifle I would put on a barrel nut without holes and torque it to see how much it takes to fail and try that much torque on one of my ar15s to prove the metal is super soft.

Anyways I have said what I am going to say and not going to keep spamming this thread, believe me or don't but if BCL starts replacing only the barrel nut I will be a betting man there is still going to be rifles found out of alignment, I only hope people don't get hurt from it.
 
Reaction rods and barrel vices are actually the worst way to install a barrel, from a mechanical perspective, as they transfer all the torque into the weakest places. They only exist/are used for convenience.

For muzzle device installation, a barrel vice IS the proper method.
 
I have studied your photos and I cannot see any appreciable wear on the feed ramps cut in the aluminum of the upper receiver.
Are you referring to wear in the feed ramps in the barrel extension? Couple of edges there that look a bit ragged.
 
tiriaq said:
I have studied your photos and I cannot see any appreciable wear on the feed ramps cut in the aluminum of the upper receiver.
Are you referring to wear in the feed ramps in the barrel extension? Couple of edges there that look a bit ragged.
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Yes. I will try to take a better photo when I get a chance, I wasn't trying to show that in those photos (was just showing proper alignment) so there is not a clear photo of it but I can probably take a better one.

Edit: I do also realize that is not necessarily the same metal they used for the part failing but it is a part that gets hammered and shouldn't be soft metal so if they cheaped out there they probably cheaped out on the part that is failing as well. I did also take a file to a non important part of the same chunk of metal in the same area that failed in OPs photos and it was SOFT. Properly heat treated 6### aluminum should not be that soft.

Just making a guess, but I think BCL has an issue with their heat treating process. The rifles with these issues also do correspond fairly close to their price drop so maybe they started using cheaper aluminum? Again this is all just my opinion and or educated guesses.
 
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