Bear defence question :D

Calum said:
And you can bet Bear defence range will be within 30 yards...if not closer.
This is the common expectation, however it is not universally true. Exceptions could include an individual who is responsible for a group of people, and as people will, they string themselves out. In such a case a shot could be much longer than what one might normally expect. Another exception is if a bear is shot and wounded, if a second shot presents itself, it could be well beyond what is normally considered "bear defence" range. Problems arise when a bear is just a few feet away, and the shooter becomes more concerned with speed than marksmanship. I carry a shotgun from time to time as a bear gun, but I think it's a poor choice unless I am somewhere that excessive penetration poses a danger.
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I know this might sound funny...but have you considered looking into the 45-70 Marlins? I know everyone sais that they're thumpers...and that's very true when you load hot and heavy...but with factory recoil pad and maybe even ported barrel, I don't imagine any recoil troubles with proper ammunition...

I'm thinking heavy and (somewhat) slow...you're not shooting distance, and something big and slow could pack a whollop w/ bullet weight retention...just like what they used to hammer buffalo in the old days, but with less splatter and more punch with modern projectiles.

Any bites?
 
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I just did the calculation comparing the recoil of the .30-30/170 to the .45/70/400, both fired from 7 pound rifles and both loaded with IMR 3031. Even with a velocity of 1500 fps, the 45/70 has a free recoil of 27 ft/lbs. while the .30-30's 170 @ 2100 recoils 11 ft/lbs. If we further reduce the velocity of the .45-70's 400 gr bullet to 1300 fps, recoil drops to 21 ft/lbs. If we choose a bullet lighter than 400 grs for the .45-70, or further reduce the velocity of the 400 gr bullet, we begin to loose ground to the .44 magnum. A .44 can drive a 325 gr hard cast bullet about 1400 fps from a lever action rifle and recoils about 13 ft/lbs. If a fellow doesn't like recoil, but demands a lever action rifle, I think a mild cartridge is the only answer.
 
Boomer said:
This is the common expectation, however it is not universally true. Exceptions could include an individual who is responsible for a group of people, and as people will, they string themselves out.
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Very true, but I didn't realize this was for a guide gun, I thought it was more for one person working in the woods.

For the record my one complaint for the shotgun would be the bulk, and weight of the ammo more then anything else.
 
Calum said:
I guess you have never seen what a .70 cal 400 grain slug will do when it hits something at around 1600 ft per second. :rolleyes:
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I can tell you from experience that it won't out penetrate a 400 grain 45-70 Pill at 1400 ft per second either nor a Good 30 Cal bullet;) and since we're now talking about "single" projectiles the Shotgun has ZERO advantage over a rifle....in fact most would say it's more of a hindrance;)

Like I said Shotguns are for Birds:rolleyes:

Besides the Fella clearly said this would be for Blackies....
30-30 will do..........but I agree the 44 Mag is a DAM good choice too, especially in a Compact Marlin Stainless 94, 6 lbs and 10 Rounds of Hurt in the tube:cool:
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BCWILL said:
I can tell you from experience that it won't out penetrate a 400 grain 45-70 Pill at 1400 ft per second either nor a Good 30 Cal bullet;) and since we're now talking about "single" projectiles the Shotgun has ZERO advantage over a rifle....in fact most would say it's more of a hindrance;)
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IMHO at close range (which is where Bear defence is going to be happening) I'd say penetration difference between a shotgun slug, and a rifle are moot, and besides which you are forgetting the most important stopper of anything with a pulse...wound channel, and a slug makes a much much wider one, going in and going out. :D

But the lever in your pic is pretty, but for bear defence I'd rather have it in 45/70, then 30/30. :D
 
870 short barrel with Buckshot, "More holes means less bear" Plus its hard to shoot when your scared so take the fudge factor out of it and use a shotgun.
 
I've got a marlin in both 30/30 and 44 mag, I can say that the felt recoil of the 44 mag feels a lot less then the 30/30.
Both of these feel a lot less then my model 94 in 450 marlin.
I would choose a 450 or 45/70 over either the 44 or 30/30, however if I were recoil shy I would take either the 30/30 or 44 depending solely on which gun I could get the better deal on and how available the 44 mag ammo is in my region.
 
Calum said:
But the lever in your pic is pretty, but for bear defence I'd rather have it in 45/70, then 30/30. :D
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Not pretty it's Dam right ###y.....and It's a 44 Mangelum not dirty thirty;)

Like I said at 6 lbs and with 10 rounds available in the tube the Lil 94 Marlin in 44 magnum is a Potent lil package for anyone Scared to venture into the Woods:cool:

Coastal Brown Bear medicine ? Perhaps not the best choice...but for the odd fiesty Lil dink 300 lb BlackBear it will certainly dump him on his Fat head:wave:
 
BCWILL said:
I can tell you from experience that it won't out penetrate a 400 grain 45-70 Pill at 1400 ft per second either nor a Good 30 Cal bullet;) and since we're now talking about "single" projectiles the Shotgun has ZERO advantage over a rifle....in fact most would say it's more of a hindrance;)

Like I said Shotguns are for Birds:rolleyes:

Besides the Fella clearly said this would be for Blackies....
30-30 will do..........but I agree the 44 Mag is a DAM good choice too, especially in a Compact Marlin Stainless 94, 6 lbs and 10 Rounds of Hurt in the tube:cool:
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Just so I am clear on this--(assuming factory loads) does the .44 Magnum have more stopping power than the 30-30 at short ranges?

Ideally, which of these two would you pick for bear defense?
 
I would consider the 240 gr .44 and the 170 gr 30-30 dead even, but choose a 325 hard cast WFN and I believe the .44 will out perform the .30-30. The next question is, does that matter? Most black bears are under 400 pounds, and it is just foolish to think that a .30-30 is not up to the job.

Despite that, my choice would be the .44. The .44 holds more rounds in the tube magazine of traditional lever action carbines. The .44 creates a larger entry wound. The .44 is effective without having to rely on expanding bullets. But the real reason is just because I like big calibers and heavy bullets.
 
RevolverRodger said:
Thanks guys... So .30-30 sounds like a good choice for the black bears we have around here.
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If you have black bears and he likes a lever then give him what he wants. No use in trying to convince him to change to a pump of semi shotgun if he doesn't like recoil.

If it were my job to recommend to my dad with those criteria then I'd say to go for a Winchester 94 30-30 loaded with 170 grain rounds.

1. It is a lever as requested
2. It is as reliable as a gun gets
3. Next to no recoil as requested
4. The 170 grain rounds will make a bear think twice and a half decent chest or shoulder shot will stop him in his tracks. (Bears have a funny shaped head, so a head shot is not always a good idea)

If a little bit of recoil wasn't a problem then maybe change to a Marlin model 94 .44 magnum lever with a heavier load. (good 240 grain semi jacketed soft point or similar)
 
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