I'll have to try one out. I think that etched reticle should be perfectly clear for someone with astigmatism. I notice a slight starburst with my holosun 507 (acss green reticle) when my eyes are tired.
Bear Defense Rifle Optic?
- Thread starter M.w.wolf
- Start date
Are these scopes for the 100 yard charging bears?
Everyone knows you will never see a grizzly past 30 yards
funny i used optics well below 10 meters and had no issue to dispatch one wild boar that was trying to take care of some of the hunting dogs and one of the black bear was taken at 15 meters with again a scope on it but i never had to shoot a grizzlyin dlp nor for hunting so far ...
our 460 wea in africa were fitted with optics as well and were doing their jobs too ...
but again you have to try it to know what will work for you.
Joking aside: 1x scope for me is easier to put on target than irons. When things are “fast and furious” I’ve never thought much about sighting and did more point shooting.
I went to recover a bear too soon and had to shoot it when it stood up and started to move in my direction. “Charge” would be a bit of an exaggeration. Using a scope at 2x. Again it seemed more raise gun and shoot, than take aim and fire
I went to recover a bear too soon and had to shoot it when it stood up and started to move in my direction. “Charge” would be a bit of an exaggeration. Using a scope at 2x. Again it seemed more raise gun and shoot, than take aim and fire
The "Irons versus Optics" argument has been kicked around for as long as the "9mm versus .45 cal" spat, or any of the other firearms-related differences of opinion. The truth of the matter is that zero-magnification optics actually IMPROVE upon Iron sights, as they take 3 points of concern (rear sight, foresight, target) that must be aligned for a shot and reduce it to 2 Points (reticle, target). The zero-magnfication optic simplifies the aiming process by providing a single point of aim (reticle) in lieu of a Foresight which must be centred within a Rear Sight and then aligned on target. The zero-magnification optic is faster than the iron sights because it eliminates one of the aiming/alignment requirements. It really is that simple. Worst case, the zero-magnification optic provides you with a non-illuminated, black aiming reticle. However, based o a 50,000 hour battery life, you will most likely have a very bright green or red illuminated reticle to aim with, which further speeds up the sights/target alignment process.
Based on my personal experience, which includes gunfights with the most dangerous of game (smelly, bearded, bad men), those who say scopes are no good for high-stress wildlife defence are wrong. Like anything else, the suitablity of any particular optic is going to depend on the TYPE of scope that you use. Trying to pick up a charging animal in a high-magnification scope is a tough task at the best of times and is not recommended. However, a zero-magnification optic with an illuminate reticle is an entirely different class of scope that is ideally-suited to the dangerous game task. The ability to place a single point of aim (reticle) on at target versus lining up a Foresight and Rear Sight with a target is a huge advantage in terms of both time and effort when seconds count the most....
It is time for the optics nay-sayers to join the 21st Century. Times have changed!
Based on my personal experience, which includes gunfights with the most dangerous of game (smelly, bearded, bad men), those who say scopes are no good for high-stress wildlife defence are wrong. Like anything else, the suitablity of any particular optic is going to depend on the TYPE of scope that you use. Trying to pick up a charging animal in a high-magnification scope is a tough task at the best of times and is not recommended. However, a zero-magnification optic with an illuminate reticle is an entirely different class of scope that is ideally-suited to the dangerous game task. The ability to place a single point of aim (reticle) on at target versus lining up a Foresight and Rear Sight with a target is a huge advantage in terms of both time and effort when seconds count the most....
It is time for the optics nay-sayers to join the 21st Century. Times have changed!
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Butcherbill
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Irons or red dot, you won’t need a scope for bear defense ranges. Realistically if your on the receiving end of a defensive or predatory bear encounter your rifle will be used 20-25m or closer. If you have a long distance charge you’ll want to start shooting to kill it by 50y as the average bear will be moving between 50-55mph, at 50y you have roughly 3 seconds to impact. Anything furthermore out that isn’t in a full out charge isn’t an immediate threat, you’ll want to be assessing its intent or behaviour and readying your defence but it’s not a threat yet.
The last 3 bear attacks in my [the North] end of the Whiteshell happened a couple of years ago. One was ~500 yds. from my cottage near the North Trail-Head of Mantario Trail.
The attacks occurred at 15 yards or less.
What can we learn from that?
1) you better have a weapon;
2) it better be to hand, NOT slung;
3) it better be loaded;
4) you better have a wide open or no sights, like a shotgun where your eye is the rear sight [remember when I wrote about cheek weld?] so you can accurately snap-shoot;
5) you better have practised;
6) you better be in the right mind set,
That, or you should probably Stay the F out of the bush, cause you're not at the top of the food chain.
The attacks occurred at 15 yards or less.
What can we learn from that?
1) you better have a weapon;
2) it better be to hand, NOT slung;
3) it better be loaded;
4) you better have a wide open or no sights, like a shotgun where your eye is the rear sight [remember when I wrote about cheek weld?] so you can accurately snap-shoot;
5) you better have practised;
6) you better be in the right mind set,
That, or you should probably Stay the F out of the bush, cause you're not at the top of the food chain.
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Butcherbill
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
You should also know a bit about bear/cougar behaviour and be able to recognize and respond correctly to a defensive or predatory encounter.
1.5-4x scope on my Mossberg 930 12 ga. autoloader quick & accurate target acquisition 5 slugs / 000 on tap. https://i.imgur.com/Z4g8ZJ6.jpg
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it is not because you re not using one that you re telling everybody else to do so ...
Butcherbill
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
This is just the reality of it, if you have to shoot a bear out far it’s not a problem bear. Irons or a red dot are better than most variable power optics will be at distances less than 25y, I've shot things close in with a scope before and it’s not ideal.
Red Dot for sure . love mine . RJ
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned regarding red dots and specifically open ones like the rmr is exposure to rain, ice or snow and what can happen when the lens is wet.
Closed optics like the aimpoint micros might be a better choice if you’re ever going to be seeing inclement weather. Or irons of course.
If this is strictly a defensive gun irons are fine IMO, how we if you want to ad versatility and also potentially use it for hunting having an optic on quick detach rings to use when your specifically hunting might be a good idea.
Closed optics like the aimpoint micros might be a better choice if you’re ever going to be seeing inclement weather. Or irons of course.
If this is strictly a defensive gun irons are fine IMO, how we if you want to ad versatility and also potentially use it for hunting having an optic on quick detach rings to use when your specifically hunting might be a good idea.
Good points, but the Aimpoint PRO answers those concerns and is always my recommendation. They can be left turned on for an absurdly long time and also allow for cowitnessing of iron sights. You can even use one with both lens caps both closed, or keep the downrange cap closed for total invisibility, and they will accommodate several makes of magnifiers. I know there are newer red dot sights that are even better in the battery life department, but the Pro just fills me with confidence.
If you are close enough to need a gun for bear defence, you shure as f*** don't want a scope or dot. Bugger will have you by the neck before you are able to aquire the target, or while you are trying to un-snag your optical device. Dangerous game guns don't have scopes/optics.
Your 460 in Africa had one because it was not primarily a dangerous game defense gun, but a hunting gun that may be required to be used a long range.
if anyone requires an optic to shoot something dangerous and agressive at less than 50 yards, they should be carrying a white cane rather than a firearm.
A scope may actually save the bear, prevent him from getting the gun stuck in his throat; then after he eats you, he can use the barrel for a tooth-pick.
lol it was not for hunting but for back up clients ... and i should have a white cane for sure ...
ever used a 1x or 1.25 with a 20 or 24mm objective? they re working great ... but you have to use it to believe it.
I have no problem using a scope at close range, and completely agree that they are just as fast as irons at low or 1x magnification. I use them hunting and tracking deer even in the thick bush, for the versatility they provide.
However, if it's really nasty out and I am tracking deer, it's usually irons. Scope caps help but its still another step to flip them up...as KaneZor mentioned, weather issues are not something you want to deal with in a dangerous situation. For a gun that is designed strictly for defense at close range in ALL conditions I personally would choose irons or ghost ring
However, if it's really nasty out and I am tracking deer, it's usually irons. Scope caps help but its still another step to flip them up...as KaneZor mentioned, weather issues are not something you want to deal with in a dangerous situation. For a gun that is designed strictly for defense at close range in ALL conditions I personally would choose irons or ghost ring
Mostly agree, and I generally prefer robust (okay, expensive) 1x red dots for this application. But I will say that during daylight hours, a single bead front sight will be superior to an RDS if you practice with it. A single bead front sight is sufficiently accurate for wildlife defense, and it's the toughest, lightest, lowest profile sighting system option.
This is not to say that good RDS aren't "sufficiently" reliable, but the true worst case with an RDS is a dead unit with no reticle at all. Or a lens completely blocked by mud or ice or snow. Or my favourite: A lens cap that you can't remove in a hurry.
Maybe the above are practical considerations for you, maybe not. For me, the practical deciding factor is low light. Obviously, an illuminated reticle is the clear winner in low light conditions. But then you'd better have a light on your gun, too, or someone to hold a flashlight for you...
EDIT: It is also possible to have to "hunt for the dot" if you are not used to your RDS, but that's a training issue. Truth is, no sighting system works well if you're not familiar with it.
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Butcherbill
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Oh I believe they would work but at 25m or less I know irons are superior, rds would be a close second. Ask anyone that works in the bush and carry’s something type of firearm for protection what they’re set up is, I bet the majority are not using an optic. We’re not talking about your hunting gun that you can use to shoot a bear but a dedicated predator defense gun, two different things.
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