- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
Bears at camp
- Thread starter alaus24
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
While a 12 gauge shotgun can be the equivalent of a powerful rifle, I believe that the use of buckshot is a very specialized one and one that is mostly misunderstood. By the time that the shot pattern has opened up enough that you no longer have to carefully aim, buckshot has ceased to be the proper tool. Each pellet is very light compared to the combined shot column weight, therefore each pellet looses velocity quickly and without velocity the pellet cannot penetrate deeply enough to cause a lethal wound. Secondly, shot depends on a number of hits in the same place to increase the seriousness of the wound, the wider the shot pattern on the target, the less lethal it becomes. Buckshot doesn't have many pellets to put on the target so it's effective range is determined not only by the velocity of each individual pellet, but by the width of the pattern. The tighter the pattern, the less survivable the wound. That means that when used within it's effective range, the shotgun loaded with buckshot must be aimed just like a rifle Out to 10 yards is about the limit for buckshot on a big animal, beyond that a slug is the better tool.
The reason to choose shot over a slug is then not to make hitting easier, it is to limit over-penetration that could be dangerous to other people or cause property damage beyond the target. That being the case, having the first round out of the magazine loaded with buckshot could be viewed as sensible. The shotgun so loaded could then be effective at close range, but should the first shot needed to be taken at longer range, the shot cartridge could be simply ejected and a slug loaded and fired. In almost any possible scenario, a follow up shot should certainly be made with a slug if the animal is running for cover.
The reason we prefer rifles here for bear work is that in a situation where the bear monitor is responsible for a crew working in a wide area, or a group of tourists strung out along a trail, the need for lethal force might be beyond the range of the shotgun, even when it is loaded with slugs. Depending on the layout of the camp in question that might also be a consideration.
With regards to the magazine capacity of a .303 or a .30/30, while that capacity might be comforting, if the problem is not solved within 3 rounds, it probably won't be solved then and there. The bigger question, than if the camp gun will be a rifle or a shotgun, should be who is going to be the designated hitter. Preferably it is someone who has some hunting experience and has killed a large animal in the past. If the bear problem is significant, hiring an experienced bear monitor is better than arming a neophyte and giving him or her the responsibility of protecting people.
The suggestion to booby trap a bait with poison or a chemical that is more likely to injure than kill the bear is of no value what so ever. Aside from the cruelty issue, it could result in a very dangerous animal near a populated area should the bear survive, but be unable to feed itself. I have no problem with killing a bear in either a hunting or protection scenario, but to me this line of thinking is despicable. If a food conditioned problem bear is in the area, get the DNR to bring out a culvert trap. If you shoot the bear prior to it being caught, then that solves the problem.
The reason to choose shot over a slug is then not to make hitting easier, it is to limit over-penetration that could be dangerous to other people or cause property damage beyond the target. That being the case, having the first round out of the magazine loaded with buckshot could be viewed as sensible. The shotgun so loaded could then be effective at close range, but should the first shot needed to be taken at longer range, the shot cartridge could be simply ejected and a slug loaded and fired. In almost any possible scenario, a follow up shot should certainly be made with a slug if the animal is running for cover.
The reason we prefer rifles here for bear work is that in a situation where the bear monitor is responsible for a crew working in a wide area, or a group of tourists strung out along a trail, the need for lethal force might be beyond the range of the shotgun, even when it is loaded with slugs. Depending on the layout of the camp in question that might also be a consideration.
With regards to the magazine capacity of a .303 or a .30/30, while that capacity might be comforting, if the problem is not solved within 3 rounds, it probably won't be solved then and there. The bigger question, than if the camp gun will be a rifle or a shotgun, should be who is going to be the designated hitter. Preferably it is someone who has some hunting experience and has killed a large animal in the past. If the bear problem is significant, hiring an experienced bear monitor is better than arming a neophyte and giving him or her the responsibility of protecting people.
The suggestion to booby trap a bait with poison or a chemical that is more likely to injure than kill the bear is of no value what so ever. Aside from the cruelty issue, it could result in a very dangerous animal near a populated area should the bear survive, but be unable to feed itself. I have no problem with killing a bear in either a hunting or protection scenario, but to me this line of thinking is despicable. If a food conditioned problem bear is in the area, get the DNR to bring out a culvert trap. If you shoot the bear prior to it being caught, then that solves the problem.
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My friend you have a problem that needs to be dealt with by the Ministry or your self right away.
That bear is in "His" territory. In his mind, you are trespassers.
And small childern may just be perceived as a nuisance or worse yet, another food source.
Bearhunter's got some good advice there. But you've missed the obvious answer here. You asked do I use the 12 ga. the 303 or the 3030. I'd have to answer with the 12 ga. (ssg or 00 buck) AND the 30-30, keep a friend handy, someone that's competant. If you expect a confrontation with a bear, 2 on 1 is always better than 1 on 1 if something goes wrong.
Try to deal with the bear BEFORE camp day also.
M.
My 2 cents.
Try to deal with the bear BEFORE camp day also.
M.
My 2 cents.
There is realy only one answer to that question or one solution to the problem, if you have alerted the Wildlife people ,the next time the bear comes for a snack shoot it with your .303 in a situation where you have some control. I helped run a cadet camp 30 years ago, in bear country .Some things NEVER change Kids are much more important than a bear. Dont take a chance, the rest of your life is along time to be sorry.Duker
I assume given your location we're talking black bears here.
We've talked to a lot of professionals about this, seen a lot of very experienced people and bear guides talk about this on this site, and of course in bc we know bears. You have to, there's too many of them.
For personal protection i love a shotgun with slugs. Buckshot is a mistake. Mixing buck and slugs is a mistake. Slugs are what you want. If you want a hostile bear to go down, you need bone breaking power and a big honkin' wound channel that will allow the bear's blood pressure to drop very suddenly. Slugs give that better than buck. 'overpenetration' outdoors isn't something that would concern me. At close range a bear's body is enough to seriously deform and possibly even break up a slug after it's done it's job so it won't tend to over penetrate with a whole lot of energy, it's not likely to riccochet or the like. A wounded bear is more of a threat than the risk of over penetration. Just watch what's behind you and shoot 'down' into the bear if you have to because others are around. At farther distance obviously you need a slug's power. Buckshot is ok, but for a hostile bear anything buck can do slugs can do better.
BUT - this isn't 'personal protection', you're responsible for others. Which means you need to reach out and touch a bear sometimes, it might not be coming right at you. For that, the 303 with it's detachable mag and decent iron sights is probably the best choice (i'm assuming it's a reasonable shooter and you're competent with it's use). That gives you the ability to kill the bear cleanly out to 150 yards with iron sights (farther if you're a good shooter).
If you are not a hunter - talk to one. Just 'shooting' the bear isn't enough, you want to know where to hit it to do damage. There's a good chance you'll be dealing with it while it's hostile and not yet charging, so you want to know where to put your shot to get a fast kill.
Practice. Practice is more important than which gun to use. The 30-30 will kill a black bear no sweat - the 303 is more than enough. But both are useless if you aren't fast and accurate when the pressure's on, and the only way to guarantee that is practice like crazy.
IF you have to kill the bear, it will be in one of two circumstances. 1 - the bear is actually attacking something/someone. Or 2 - the bear is acting agressive, is close to camp where the kids are, and refuses to leave. It isn't attacking yet but it's a threat. Given that - i'd have to suggest that realistically the 303 is probably what you want. That gives you the ability to stand off at 50 - 75 yards and drop a bear that's just too dangerous but isn't attacking. My second choice would be shotgun with slugs, and practice like heck. Depending on how much your shotgun likes the slugs, that will give you about 30 yards of accurate killing power, which is enough in most cases.
The only other advantage to the shotgun is it lets you shoot bangers and bean bags. But IF you decide to go that route - for gods sake someone should be backing you up with bullets.
I would also arm some of the non-shooters there with bear spray. You might want to pack some yourself - it's good if the bear is in close and already has ahold of someone and you need to force it off without risking hurting someone further. It's effective in breaking off an attack, tho the bear will often return a short time later. If someone sprays a bear - and it returns - kill it. Don't even think about it just do it. Don't wait to see if it's hostile. It is.
And keep bugging the ministry to do something with the bear.
We've talked to a lot of professionals about this, seen a lot of very experienced people and bear guides talk about this on this site, and of course in bc we know bears. You have to, there's too many of them.
For personal protection i love a shotgun with slugs. Buckshot is a mistake. Mixing buck and slugs is a mistake. Slugs are what you want. If you want a hostile bear to go down, you need bone breaking power and a big honkin' wound channel that will allow the bear's blood pressure to drop very suddenly. Slugs give that better than buck. 'overpenetration' outdoors isn't something that would concern me. At close range a bear's body is enough to seriously deform and possibly even break up a slug after it's done it's job so it won't tend to over penetrate with a whole lot of energy, it's not likely to riccochet or the like. A wounded bear is more of a threat than the risk of over penetration. Just watch what's behind you and shoot 'down' into the bear if you have to because others are around. At farther distance obviously you need a slug's power. Buckshot is ok, but for a hostile bear anything buck can do slugs can do better.
BUT - this isn't 'personal protection', you're responsible for others. Which means you need to reach out and touch a bear sometimes, it might not be coming right at you. For that, the 303 with it's detachable mag and decent iron sights is probably the best choice (i'm assuming it's a reasonable shooter and you're competent with it's use). That gives you the ability to kill the bear cleanly out to 150 yards with iron sights (farther if you're a good shooter).
If you are not a hunter - talk to one. Just 'shooting' the bear isn't enough, you want to know where to hit it to do damage. There's a good chance you'll be dealing with it while it's hostile and not yet charging, so you want to know where to put your shot to get a fast kill.
Practice. Practice is more important than which gun to use. The 30-30 will kill a black bear no sweat - the 303 is more than enough. But both are useless if you aren't fast and accurate when the pressure's on, and the only way to guarantee that is practice like crazy.
IF you have to kill the bear, it will be in one of two circumstances. 1 - the bear is actually attacking something/someone. Or 2 - the bear is acting agressive, is close to camp where the kids are, and refuses to leave. It isn't attacking yet but it's a threat. Given that - i'd have to suggest that realistically the 303 is probably what you want. That gives you the ability to stand off at 50 - 75 yards and drop a bear that's just too dangerous but isn't attacking. My second choice would be shotgun with slugs, and practice like heck. Depending on how much your shotgun likes the slugs, that will give you about 30 yards of accurate killing power, which is enough in most cases.
The only other advantage to the shotgun is it lets you shoot bangers and bean bags. But IF you decide to go that route - for gods sake someone should be backing you up with bullets.
I would also arm some of the non-shooters there with bear spray. You might want to pack some yourself - it's good if the bear is in close and already has ahold of someone and you need to force it off without risking hurting someone further. It's effective in breaking off an attack, tho the bear will often return a short time later. If someone sprays a bear - and it returns - kill it. Don't even think about it just do it. Don't wait to see if it's hostile. It is.
And keep bugging the ministry to do something with the bear.
Noticed in your original question that your shotgun is FULL choke...not a generally recommended configuration for shooting slugs, plus you've a smooth bore shotgun, so you need to be selective on the type of slug, sabot etc....
Here's a short article I found
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
Hopefully, the authorities will step up and you won't have to kill the poor thing.
Martin
Here's a short article I found
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
Hopefully, the authorities will step up and you won't have to kill the poor thing.
Martin
I would have to say that there is going to be a quiet time up there before all of the kids show up. Take the 303 with a 180 grain (because it is the most accurate, fastest and hits the hardest) and let him have a few. Hook it up to a truck or a quad and make it dissappear. This is what I would fear the most. KIDS ARE CURIOUS TOO, AND YOU CAN'T WATCH 40 TO 50 THE WHOLE TIME. Hey, look at the pretty bear.
Ry-Guy
Ry-Guy
Some would call this being a poacher as poisoning an animal as neither is fair chase or immediate defence.
IMHO someone who does this sort of thing should get out of the wood, turn in their guns, and move into a psych ward.
Also back on topic... few large well trained camp dogs is a good bear detector.
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we have been having a problem grizzly at our camp. at night it comes within sixty feet from us working. I suggest using bear spray bangers confront the bear with someone you trust close with the shotgun slugs. If the bear then continues to come back blast the $@"&er. This will help you in the end if there is an investigation. i doubt you will have to use a gun after spray bangers.
Mount Sweetness
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Ontario
stock up on some extra ammo, start practicing with your firearm of choice, you will need it
Turkeyslayer 1300
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Russell, Ontario
Worst advice given in any Bear defence thread I have ever read.
