Behold the beauty!

mini15,

It is the correct profile, but the FN ones issued to the US Military use FN's cold hammer forged barrels, which is why I suggested the BCM one, although I believe the current offering is not CHF, so the Colt barrel will be the same in terms of materials, coating, dimensions and testing. The stripped FN lower would just be there to make it look the same, but as some Colts have been issued, I suppose the Colt would also suffice, and at least the Colt will definitely be correct in terms of materials, dimensions, and tolerances.

TDC,

What is "gov spec"? Now you are just making up terms to try to drag yourself out of the hole you are digging. For a rifle to meet the actual specifications required for acceptance by the military, it has to have either Safe-Semi-Burst or Safe-Semi-Auto fire controls, no if's, but's, and's or also's. In the case of the carbine, it is also required to have a 14.5" barrel.

In the case of the carbine, there are currently only two firearms that can claim to meet these standards. They are the Colt R0920 (Safe-Semi-Burst), and the Colt R0921 (Safe-Semi-Auto). In fact, Colt actually states this on their web site: "the ONLY 5.56mm carbine in the world today that is manufactured to meet or exceed the stringent performance specifications (MILSPEC) required for acceptance and use by the U.S. Armed Forces". No other manufacturer can claim this, or dispute this, although I believe first Remington, and now FN have been selected to be the current sole suppliers.

Nowhere on BCM's site do they claim that their rifles and carbines are "completely mil spec". They list certain parts of their guns as being built, coated and/or tested to one or other of the various military specifications laid down as being acceptable, but that is only part of the TDP package. Also, the only component that is independently tested, is the barrel steel. They state that the barrels are also HPT'd and MPI'd to the required spec, but only you are claiming that those processes are also independently tested.

Basically, you are just making stuff up. Perhaps you should go and do some reading of the various specs that apply, and the difference between a collection of specs that is easily and freely obtainable on the internet ( http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/ ), and the TDP. Having access to the TDP is why FN can not produce a "milspec" rifle or carbine for civilian sale, not because they have chosen not to, in order to save a few bucks, unlike DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, and yes, even Armalite (the only thing they have in common with the original Armalite, is the name that the new company purchased).

When you have done some reading, and have a proper understanding about the stuff you are posting, we can continue this discussion.

Gunnerlove,

Absolutely correct. People who say that "milspec" guns are built by the lowest bidder to the minimum requirements, and use that description as a derogatory term, have absolutely no understanding of "milspec".

Regards.

Mark
 
mini15,

It is the correct profile, but the FN ones issued to the US Military use FN's cold hammer forged barrels, which is why I suggested the BCM one, although I believe the current offering is not CHF, so the Colt barrel will be the same in terms of materials, coating, dimensions and testing.


Mark

This is actually not true. The US military TDP has always required button rifles barrels. Hammer forged barrels were never accepted by the US military for M16 or M4 production. Canadian MILSPEC accepts hammer forged barrels.

Even though FN can hammer forge barrels, they also button rifle barrels for military M16 production as per the TDP.

http://www.fnmfg.com/capabilities/Gun%20Barrels/

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/foghorn/a-look-inside-fnms-south-carolina-barrel-shop/
 
Thank you for that information, I stand corrected.

I had thought that as the US Military were now accepting cold hammer forged barrels in the HK416, Mk27 and FN SCAR, that FN were able to use the CHF barrels in the M16FOW. In that case, the Colt AR15A4 would be the closest to the issued rifles, perhaps with a stripped FN lower just for the looks. Provided of course that they have the correct "F" marked front sight assembly.

Regards.

Mark
 
mini15,

It is the correct profile, but the FN ones issued to the US Military use FN's cold hammer forged barrels, which is why I suggested the BCM one, although I believe the current offering is not CHF, so the Colt barrel will be the same in terms of materials, coating, dimensions and testing. The stripped FN lower would just be there to make it look the same, but as some Colts have been issued, I suppose the Colt would also suffice, and at least the Colt will definitely be correct in terms of materials, dimensions, and tolerances.

TDC,

What is "gov spec"? Now you are just making up terms to try to drag yourself out of the hole you are digging. For a rifle to meet the actual specifications required for acceptance by the military, it has to have either Safe-Semi-Burst or Safe-Semi-Auto fire controls, no if's, but's, and's or also's. In the case of the carbine, it is also required to have a 14.5" barrel.As I said, the difference between gov guns and civilian are the parts required for select fire. A rifle can contain 100% mil spec parts and not be identical to a government contract rifle, the term "gov spec" was used to illustrate such a difference, I guess it was a poor choice in words.

In the case of the carbine, there are currently only two firearms that can claim to meet these standards. They are the Colt R0920 (Safe-Semi-Burst), and the Colt R0921 (Safe-Semi-Auto). In fact, Colt actually states this on their web site: "the ONLY 5.56mm carbine in the world today that is manufactured to meet or exceed the stringent performance specifications (MILSPEC) required for acceptance and use by the U.S. Armed Forces". No other manufacturer can claim this, or dispute this, although I believe first Remington, and now FN have been selected to be the current sole suppliers.
Colt or any other company making a statement on their website does not make it fact.

Nowhere on BCM's site do they claim that their rifles and carbines are "completely mil spec". They list certain parts of their guns as being built, coated and/or tested to one or other of the various military specifications laid down as being acceptable, but that is only part of the TDP package. Also, the only component that is independently tested, is the barrel steel. They state that the barrels are also HPT'd and MPI'd to the required spec, but only you are claiming that those processes are also independently tested.

Have you had a good look at the "great AR chart" and compared brands? BCM rifles feature all mil spec parts, see the links below.

Ar chart
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1487664

Read the full thread to answer your questions.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?56063-Be-an-informed-consumer!


Basically, you are just making stuff up. Perhaps you should go and do some reading of the various specs that apply, and the difference between a collection of specs that is easily and freely obtainable on the internet ( http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/ ), and the TDP. Having access to the TDP is why FN can not produce a "milspec" rifle or carbine for civilian sale, not because they have chosen not to, in order to save a few bucks, unlike DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, and yes, even Armalite (the only thing they have in common with the original Armalite, is the name that the new company purchased).



When you have done some reading, and have a proper understanding about the stuff you are posting, we can continue this discussion.

Gunnerlove,

Absolutely correct. People who say that "milspec" guns are built by the lowest bidder to the minimum requirements, and use that description as a derogatory term, have absolutely no understanding of "milspec".

Regards.

Mark

I find it odd for such a reputable company that has a government contract to not post any specs about their rifles? No mention of bolt or barrel steel, "f" marked FSB, properly staked carrier gas key, or even a mil spec receiver extension tube. All are common criteria on mil spec guns, but none of them are mentioned. All I see on their site is a 1:7 twist barrel and chrome lined.

TDC
 
MILSPEC in the true sense requires more than just select fire parts, or certain dimensions.

MILSPEC is an award that requires a huge investment in time and money to get and maintain.

The weapons must first be tested in accordance with the entire NATO-AC225/D14 test manual (hundreds of pages) and then pass and be admitted to the NATO nominated weapon library, by meeting all the STANAGS. This means, among other things, the weapon has to be proven with ALL STANAG ammo of that calibre. $$ This test involves, among other things, drop testing and barrel obstruction testing - which destroys or damages the weapons. $$

The weapon must also be manufactured in accordance with the TDP and checked according to the spec. In the case of the M4 is is the MIL–DTL–71186 series of specs. This also requires that there be resident independent government inspectors to verify testing and do things like select the random serial numbers for endurance tests. This is what requires 30 round burst tests and HPT. $$ The endurance tests for every lot are ten random weapons that fire 6,000 rounds. $$. There are standards for coatings, treatments, materials, processes and even colours. There is an interchangeability test for manufacturer, government and even NATO.

And finally, for the weapon to rate as MILSPEC it needs to be adopted for general issue.

There have been dozens of facilities rated for this, currently there are three: FN, Colt's and Colt Canada.

There are loads of BCG's out there that claim to be MILSPEC because they are black phosphate or because they are staked or HPT. Many of these have never been through the treatment processes required to be verified under TDP MILSPEC contracts - because the consumer can't tell and it costs real dollars.

There are no private companies that even approach this. The information contained in the TDP complete is controlled by ITAR and the US State Dept and here in Canada by the CGP. No company that has been awarded the TDP is permitted to disclose any information, other than the specified data, even if it could be considered common knowledge. Colt's can sell MILSPEC parts and has for years - only with US government permission. Non-MILSPEC companies that are not suppliers are not required to ask permission or abide by government rules for the TDP data - even if parts they make are extremely similar.
 
The "F" mark is on the left side and indicates the sight is for a US made flat top rifle or carbine. The "F" marked sights are 1.98" high over the barrel and the non marked ones are 1.94". CF rifles and carbines don't use "F" marked front sights. Not sure the forty thousands of an inch makes all that much difference.

The right side markings are forge markings - not sure about these ones, but they just identify the forge company source. You'd see the same marks on dozens of other makes of AR's as well - there are only so many forging companies.

For perspective guys, .040" is about the thickness of 13 hairs from your head. or in real world measurements not much at all.
 
Ok, I said I wouldn't do this, But I am going to respond to what you posted.

1. You agreed that "gov spec" was your own term, and came the closest that I have seen you come to admitting you were incorrect, without actually saying so.

2. You say that just because Colt "or any other company" making a statement on their website does not make it fact. Again, that's your opinion you are stating, and you contradict yourself by believing what BCM post on their website. Now, I'm not saying BCM are making stuff up, I believe what they have posted regarding their rifles is fact. I have spoken with Paul on several occasions, as well as a number of other very respected industry professionals and SMEs who know Paul personally, and I believe what he says regarding his guns. Note, I have never said anything negative regarding BCMs guns. What I posted was that even BCM don't state that their rifles and carbines are "completely mil-spec", you said that. You obviously couldn't find anything on their website that backed up your statement, so you went looking elsewhere for "proof", and came up with an early version of the chart. It's on the internet, so it must be true. Wow, it's even on glocktalk, so it must be true.

3. The chart you referenced as "proof" that BCM guns are "completely mil-spec" also states that the Colt meets all the same specifications. Look just to the left of BCM. You will note that that version of the chart is the earlier version, and is ordered from left to right in order of compliance with the required specifications. Why is Colt on the far left? Because everyone (except you, aparently) acknowledges that Colt is the standard by which every other manufacturer is compared. Setting aside the fact that the chart is only important to those people who want a product as close as possible to the "as issued" carbine, and does not take into account any improvements such as coatings and components. I have spoken with Rob a few times prior to his giving up on the chart, and there were errors in it back then, that were corrected in the newer version, which was not completed prior to Rob giving up on the endeavour. So why is it that you say that Colt guns are "nearly complete" compared to "completely mil-spec" based off of the chart you referenced?

If you look at BCMs site, you will also note that in addition to the other things already discussed (FCG, barrel length, etc.), BCM uses a polymer Magpul MOE Enhanced Trigger Guard, instead of the metal standard trigger guard used on the Colt, and which is part of the proper specification. Still want to say that it is "completely mil-spec"?

Another thing to note about the chart you referenced, is that apart from the FCG pin size, it does not reference the fire control group at all. Why is that? Because to be "completely mil-spec" a gun has to comply with every specification laid out, to include the components of the FCG. There is no spec for semi-auto trigger groups. Therefore, they can not meet any spec. Therefore, they can not be "mil-spec", and if the major components of the lower receiver half are not "mil-spec", the gun can not be "completely mil-spec". Now, can those components be made of identical materials with the same coatings? Of course. Can they be made to the same dimensions and tolerances? where are those laid out for semi-auto FCGs? I'll stop there, because if that is not clear enough, then nothing else will help.

4. You referenced Grant's thread on M4C as further proof, but I'm not sure why, as it proves my point rather than yours:
"Here are some cold hard facts:

1. The only way to get a TRULY Mil-Spec weapon is to be issued it by the US Military.
2. The current two companies with the OFFICIAL TDP (Technical Data Package) are Colt and FN."

I source BCM products from Grant for customers' builds, so I have no problems recommending their products to my customers, including some who are military contractors or LE organisations, and actually use their guns as intended.

5. Finally, your last comment is just clutching at straws. Colt don't need to publish a whole list of specs on their website. Mil/Gov/LE purchasers who contact Colt can get the full specifications sent to them prior to purchase, and the government inspectors at Colt ensure compliance with the required specifications and TDP for US Military contract guns. Anyone who purchases a Colt relies on that, rather than a list published on the web which, according to you, does not make it fact.

I don't know what else to say. You are obviously a BCM fanboi, and I commend you on your choice, but there are equally good choices out there for people wanting to get a rifle or carbine that is as close to "as issued" as they can legally get, Colt being one of them. With the prices that they are now available at, Colt is as good a choice as BCM, and both are better than the current FN or Armalite offerings (I'm not going to mention any others, no point). If you want "better" than "mil-spec", look at Knights or Noveske, but if you want something the "same" as issued, Colt is the standard.

Regards.

Mark
 
4. You referenced Grant's thread on M4C as further proof, but I'm not sure why, as it proves my point rather than yours:
"Here are some cold hard facts:

1. The only way to get a TRULY Mil-Spec weapon is to be issued it by the US Military.
2. The current two companies with the OFFICIAL TDP (Technical Data Package) are Colt and FN."

These are not really the whole truth. There are a number of other licensee's that produce or have produced according to the TDP:

Colt Canada - a separate company with a separate licence and hold the TDP. Meets or exceeds all US MILSPECS and is permitted to bid directly on DOD contracts.

ST Kinetics in Taiwan was licensed and produced MILSPEC rifles as did Daewoo in ROK.

M16 series were made for US military contracts by H&R and GM Hydramatic.

As long as we are here, and off topic, let's leave the insults and baiting out of it and have a civilized discussion. You seem to have a good grasp of the topic and lots of good information.
 
Yes, my apologies, especially to the OP for hijacking your thread. I am aware that other companies have produced examples of the M16FOW, but I threw Grant's quote in there to support the point I was attempting to convey.

C77,

Do you know if the Colt Canada guns supplied to the US Military under contract are also required to have non CHF barrels? I know that some Colt Canada assemblies and components have shown up in US civilian hands, where people purchased Colt guns that turned out to have Colt Canada uppers, I believe, and may even have had CHF barrels in them.

Perhaps a AR15 Technical Thread where these issues could be discussed would be a better idea.

Regards.

Mark
 
Colt Canada never supplied US military with complete guns. The closest was the LSW program - and that got cancelled, and the CHF barrels all got sold on the civilian market.

US never accepted CHF barrels. The US Army Ordnance Corp was the authority and to my knowledge never explained why. Colt's clearly has access to a forge, and a very good one - not that the button rifles are bad.

The LE models that were made in Canada for Colt's all had CHF barrels profiled to Colt's specs. These ones have made in back to Canada via grey market importers. There was some mixing and matching as well - a D marked upper receiver does not necessarily mean a CHF barrel. The complete guns that say made in Canada under licence were all CHF barrels.
 
These are not really the whole truth. There are a number of other licensee's that produce or have produced according to the TDP:

Colt Canada - a separate company with a separate licence and hold the TDP. Meets or exceeds all US MILSPECS and is permitted to bid directly on DOD contracts.

ST Kinetics in Taiwan was licensed and produced MILSPEC rifles as did Daewoo in ROK.

M16 series were made for US military contracts by H&R and GM Hydramatic.

As long as we are here, and off topic, let's leave the insults and baiting out of it and have a civilized discussion. You seem to have a good grasp of the topic and lots of good information.

A couple of other companies held the TDP. Sabre Defence had a contract for the USMC and US Navy to produce M16A3 & M16A4 and Manroy USA which purchased the remains of Sabre Defence after the management were arrested by BATF.
 
Yes, I spent some time at the Sabre Defence "factory" in the UK back before all the trouble started. The components were not manufactured there, merely assembled prior to shipping overseas for various foreign government and private contracts. I know they apparently had some US Military contracts, including .50 bmg barrels, but as I recall, everything was manufactured in the US. That's how they got themselves in trouble.

Regards.

Mark
 
Some people love to beak off just for the sake of visibility on here...never once giving possitive feedback or compliments..... hurts my mind.

Thats a great looking rifle. Very interesting to hear the various meathods of manufacturing and testing.

The OP knows his stuff...
 
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Nice!
Good to see some old school AR's.
I personally can't stand all the modern plastic fantastic tupperware crap people throw on them lol
They look and handle awesome the way they were designed by Stoner :D

Sweet rifle Sir.
 
Congrats on the full size AR15. She will shoot smooth as glass. :cool:

My AR-15A2 has no F marked front sight only a C I can tell. It has the fixed handle like the original C-7 with the A1 rear sight.
 
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