Belgian Pinfire Revolver
- Thread starter gerard488
- Start date
BlackPowderBurner
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- the chesterfield
Manufactured prior to 1898 and chambered in a caliber not specified as excluded...
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Definitely qualified by cartridge.
Almost certainly qualified by age of manufacturing but can that be proven? Look for proof marks and research what you find. Belgian marks are usually pretty easy to figure out.
Almost certainly qualified by age of manufacturing but can that be proven? Look for proof marks and research what you find. Belgian marks are usually pretty easy to figure out.
Unfortunately the cartridge alone will not qualify it as an antique. The proof marks or maker's name have to date it to pre-1898. If it has the Belgian "ELG" without the crown, it will be an antique, if it has the crown above the "ELG" a maker's name would be needed to determine if it was made before 1898.
I have been looking online this evening and found this, Not sure if I am reading it right but could this mean that all I need now is to verify year?
PART III
Firearms and Other Weapons
Interpretation
Marginal note
efinitions
84 (1) In this Part,
ammunition means a cartridge containing a projectile designed to be discharged from a firearm and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a caseless cartridge and a shot shell; (munitions)
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-14.html#h-117003
antique firearm means
(a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or
(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm; (arme à feu historique)
Also found This from NFA which makes it confusing
https://nfa.ca/antique-and-blackpowder-firearms/
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” says, in part:
84. (1) “prohibited firearm” means (a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105mm [4.14″] in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge…
Therefore, any handgun that is an “antique firearm” is also a “prohibited firearm” if it has a barrel less than 105mm/4.14″ long, regardless of whether it is a muzzle-loading handgun or a cartridge-firing handgun, and regardless of calibre.
Also, any handgun that is an “antique firearm” is also a “prohibited firearm” if it is “designed or adapted” to use “a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge.”
it
PART III
Firearms and Other Weapons
Interpretation
Marginal note
efinitions84 (1) In this Part,
ammunition means a cartridge containing a projectile designed to be discharged from a firearm and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a caseless cartridge and a shot shell; (munitions)
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-14.html#h-117003
antique firearm means
(a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or
(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm; (arme à feu historique)
Also found This from NFA which makes it confusing
https://nfa.ca/antique-and-blackpowder-firearms/
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” says, in part:
84. (1) “prohibited firearm” means (a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105mm [4.14″] in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge…
Therefore, any handgun that is an “antique firearm” is also a “prohibited firearm” if it has a barrel less than 105mm/4.14″ long, regardless of whether it is a muzzle-loading handgun or a cartridge-firing handgun, and regardless of calibre.
Also, any handgun that is an “antique firearm” is also a “prohibited firearm” if it is “designed or adapted” to use “a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge.”
it
The part at the bottom about an antique being prohibited is wrong, in my opinion. A gun can't be both antique and prohibited. It's either one or the other. In the exceptions for caliber, only .32 S&W and Colt are exempt. For example, .25 Stevens would not be exempt and therefore antique. Barrel length has no bearing on antiques. I have many lettered antiques with barrels as short as 2 inches or less, even. It's all about age and caliber, period.
I have been looking online this evening and found this, Not sure if I am reading it right but could this mean that all I need now is to verify year?
PART III
Firearms and Other Weapons
Interpretation
Marginal note
84 (1) In this Part,
ammunition means a cartridge containing a projectile designed to be discharged from a firearm and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a caseless cartridge and a shot shell; (munitions)
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-14.html#h-117003
antique firearm means
(a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or
(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm; (arme à feu historique)
Also found This from NFA which makes it confusing
https://nfa.ca/antique-and-blackpowder-firearms/
CC s. 84(1) “prohibited firearm” says, in part:
84. (1) “prohibited firearm” means (a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105mm [4.14″] in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge…
Therefore, any handgun that is an “antique firearm” is also a “prohibited firearm” if it has a barrel less than 105mm/4.14″ long, regardless of whether it is a muzzle-loading handgun or a cartridge-firing handgun, and regardless of calibre.
Also, any handgun that is an “antique firearm” is also a “prohibited firearm” if it is “designed or adapted” to use “a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge.”
I just read the part on the NFA website you referred to. Yes, it's confusing, and quite frankly typical of lawyer "gobble-di-gook". While I can appreciate the intricacies of legalese, I hope this lawyer will not challenge the meaning of the antique firearms provisions and try to interpret the "intent" of parliament. I say, "Let sleeping dogs lie"! If he / she were to challenge the meaning, and win, you can bet that parliament would tighten up the meaning of antique firearm and we would end up like some European countries where you can only have single-shot, muzzle loading flintlocks as antiques. Right now, with this idiotic government in charge, the only handgun you can legally buy / sell / transfer, etc. is an antique. The lawyer's musings about whether a firearm or its design ought to be antique is a dangerous route to go. If a court could be convinced that parliament intended to classify antiques by their design, this would open the flood gates for "antique" declarations. Who, then, is to say that the design of a modern revolver is not "antique"? The design dates from the 1880's and has not been improved upon since then. The same goes for bolt-action and lever-action rifles, and many other firearms - even some semi-automatics. This would surely spell the end of the antique firearms collectors' market, and the vast majority of antiques would need to be registered or destroyed.
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This was a question that had bothered me for a while when I first began collecting Antique Firearms.
I made a point of even storing my Antiques in a different safe, in a different building on our property, than my “Modern” Firearms.
In the unlikely event that someone came by to see how I was storing my guns, I was concerned about explaining why I had a bunch of short-barrelled revolvers that were perfectly legal to have, at least according to me. Now that I have dozens of them I’m less concerned, especially since the vast majority of them have RCMP-issued Antique Status Letters.
I think that it’s easiest to think of them as meeting the Antique Status threshold or not, plain and simple. If the handgun does not then it is Modern Status. Only in the case of a Modern Status gun is the additional differentiation between Restricted and Prohibited made, based upon the barrel length (greater than or less than 106mm) and, or, being chambered in .25 ACP OR .32 ACP.
The NFA piece is written poorly, as I have a .32 Smith and Wesson which is a registered Restricted “32” and I have many 32 RF’s, an 8mm French Ordinance, a 7.5mm Swiss Revolver, and several 7mm Pinfires which are all government-papered Antiques in “32” caliber. Especially in the case of a Pinfire, if it has the pre-1893 ELG Proof, it’s all good.
I made a point of even storing my Antiques in a different safe, in a different building on our property, than my “Modern” Firearms.
In the unlikely event that someone came by to see how I was storing my guns, I was concerned about explaining why I had a bunch of short-barrelled revolvers that were perfectly legal to have, at least according to me. Now that I have dozens of them I’m less concerned, especially since the vast majority of them have RCMP-issued Antique Status Letters.
I think that it’s easiest to think of them as meeting the Antique Status threshold or not, plain and simple. If the handgun does not then it is Modern Status. Only in the case of a Modern Status gun is the additional differentiation between Restricted and Prohibited made, based upon the barrel length (greater than or less than 106mm) and, or, being chambered in .25 ACP OR .32 ACP.
The NFA piece is written poorly, as I have a .32 Smith and Wesson which is a registered Restricted “32” and I have many 32 RF’s, an 8mm French Ordinance, a 7.5mm Swiss Revolver, and several 7mm Pinfires which are all government-papered Antiques in “32” caliber. Especially in the case of a Pinfire, if it has the pre-1893 ELG Proof, it’s all good.
I remember thinking about the vague definition of ,25 and .32 caliber when I first started collecting Antiques. I feltthe need for clarification, but now I don’t want it at all. Just like Registration leads to Confiscation, well so could Clarification. In practice, the RCMP has only applied that poorly written legislation to .25 ACP and ,32 ACP Mouse Guns and Jennings/Bryco/Lorcin type Saturday Night Specials.
Also, what Chris says about letting sleeping dogs lie I think is important
Remember……. “What’s The First Rule Of Fight Club?”
Also, what Chris says about letting sleeping dogs lie I think is important
Remember……. “What’s The First Rule Of Fight Club?”
Yessir, you got it.
The plain ELG Proof Mark is the pre-1893. It makes a determination of a Belgian Antique Handgun very easy. Unfortunately it also makes some Belgian Handguns “restricted” which were built in the 5 years between 1893 and 1898.
Cheers
The plain ELG Proof Mark is the pre-1893. It makes a determination of a Belgian Antique Handgun very easy. Unfortunately it also makes some Belgian Handguns “restricted” which were built in the 5 years between 1893 and 1898.
Cheers
Yes, it is. In 1893 (July 11th) the Belgian proof house added the crown above the oval. This proof mark has not changed since 1893. In 1894 they also added a letter "R" with a crown above it to denote rifled barrels on handguns. The "perron" - the candle stick has been used on long arms since 1853, and is still in use today. This is why it may be important to have a maker's name when trying to prove the antique status of a gun with the "Crown" and "R" markings. In theory, there are still some 4 to 5 years of leeway between the new proof marks and 1898. So, if you can prove that the maker ceased to exist between 1893 and 1898, your "crown over oval" handgun may still be an antique. I don't think I have ever come across one, though.
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